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Post subject: Re: Some Hot Rod Series amps Made in China?
Posted: Fri Dec 30, 2016 7:29 pm
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I decided to see when the last pair of Levi Jeans were made in USA. Surprisingly, one line still is being outsource in North Carolina.

http://www.levi.com/US/en_US/mens-jeans/p/005011995


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Post subject: Re: Some Hot Rod Series amps Made in China?
Posted: Fri Dec 30, 2016 7:54 pm
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Powdered Toast Man wrote:
No457 Snowy wrote:
Powdered Toast Man wrote:
Just curious, but if the transformers are made in China, and the caps and resistors are made in China, and the pots, switches, and jacks are made in China, and the speakers are made in China, then does it made much difference which country final assembly is completed in?


Well as an Aussie I may not be qualified to comment but I'll say this much, I guess the difference for US citizens is that you have an American Company that chooses to employ workers in another country instead of in it's own backyard. That makes a BIG difference to the US workers who no longer have a paycheck.


Hey man, I totally agree with you on that point. But the discussion seemed to be around perceived quality so that's more what I was speaking to. But yes, I believe in supporting your economy by buying products from companies that employ people in your community (where possible).


Yeah PTM I understand, the quality thing, (certainly part of the end result we see directly in the final product), kind of took a hard left when our friend decided to lecture us idiots about it. For me, I see these offshore moves also as a dilution of not only quality but a whole raft of other issues that can slip by unnoticed but are insidiously eroded in the process. The jobs to build/assemble those same Hot Rod amps, introduced in the 90's, and proudly built then in the USA, still exist within Fender, just not for Americans.
Also see my earlier post.
viewtopic.php?p=1169262#p1169262


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Post subject: Re: Some Hot Rod Series amps Made in China?
Posted: Fri Dec 30, 2016 8:58 pm
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No457 Snowy wrote:
Powdered Toast Man wrote:
No457 Snowy wrote:
Powdered Toast Man wrote:
Just curious, but if the transformers are made in China, and the caps and resistors are made in China, and the pots, switches, and jacks are made in China, and the speakers are made in China, then does it made much difference which country final assembly is completed in?


Well as an Aussie I may not be qualified to comment but I'll say this much, I guess the difference for US citizens is that you have an American Company that chooses to employ workers in another country instead of in it's own backyard. That makes a BIG difference to the US workers who no longer have a paycheck.


Hey man, I totally agree with you on that point. But the discussion seemed to be around perceived quality so that's more what I was speaking to. But yes, I believe in supporting your economy by buying products from companies that employ people in your community (where possible).


Yeah PTM I understand, the quality thing, (certainly part of the end result we see directly in the final product), kind of took a hard left when our friend decided to lecture us idiots about it. For me, I see these offshore moves also as a dilution of not only quality but a whole raft of other issues that can slip by unnoticed but are insidiously eroded in the process. The jobs to build/assemble those same Hot Rod amps, introduced in the 90's, and proudly built then in the USA, still exist within Fender, just not for Americans.
Also see my earlier post.
viewtopic.php?p=1169262#p1169262


What's irritating me is that while jobs in the USA are jobs, they're assembling the amps from the same garbage parts bin no matter what country they're being slapped together in. If they want to have a line of cheap entry level import amps - hey whatever that's fine. Fender has long tried to compete in all price points. But if I (the customer) is willing to pay the extra price tag required for the overhead of building an amp (or whatever) in the good ol' USA, then I have expectations in terms of quality and reliability that come with that price tag. I don't buy a "Made in USA" amp just because of a geographic location. I buy that because I expect the $4000 amp not to be loaded with the same bits and pieces as the $500 amp.

What I don't understand is FMIC's willingness to dilute and damage the Fender brand. That's a brand that has over 60 years of equity in the minds of musicians and even non-musicians alike. By attaching that marque to increasingly shoddy products they are continually eroding that brand's power. The Squier name existed to differentiate the imported product line from the Fender line, and in the process insulate the Fender brand. Now Fender slaps their name on everything from amps and guitars made in third party factories in Southeast Asia, to audio systems in Volkswagen cars. It's an incredibly short sighted plan that's providing short term profit boosts but hurting the company long term. I don't know who's leading FMIC right now but my god, they're running in the wrong direction.

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Post subject: Re: Some Hot Rod Series amps Made in China?
Posted: Fri Dec 30, 2016 9:57 pm
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Powdered Toast Man wrote:
I don't know who's leading FMIC right now but my god, they're running in the wrong direction.


+1000

They make the CBS-era junta look like absolute geniuses by comparison.

:x

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Post subject: Re: Some Hot Rod Series amps Made in China?
Posted: Sat Dec 31, 2016 2:06 am
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Powdered Toast Man wrote:
Now Fender slaps their name on everything from amps and guitars made in third party factories in Southeast Asia, to audio systems in Volkswagen cars. It's an incredibly short sighted plan that's providing short term profit boosts but hurting the company long term. I don't know who's leading FMIC right now but my god, they're running in the wrong direction.


Indeed it is. The tragic reality is that the people within who drive this kind of strategy are usually career driven short term players, intent on turning quick profit. Usually they couldn't give two hoots about the long term future, their goal and what they are good at is making the numbers look good in the short term, grabbing a huge bonus for their "stellar leadership efforts" and then exiting. Once the true extent of the damage to the brand, quality, the local workforce and local economy is all revealed and taking effect, often years later, they are long gone. Typically they can then be found deploying the same BS strategy in a completely different company. I hope this isn't what's happening with Fender.

Like you I'd rather pay additional money for a superior product that uses superior parts and construction methods. As far as "Made in USA", I'm pretty sure Fender are actually no longer allowed to make that claim now.
https://www.ftc.gov/tips-advice/busines ... a-standard


Last edited by No457 Snowy on Sat Dec 31, 2016 2:30 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Post subject: Re: Some Hot Rod Series amps Made in China?
Posted: Sat Dec 31, 2016 2:28 am
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Agreed. I don't mind Fender expanding their business, as long as they do it in their general area of expertise, and do it themselves.
Fender making sithers, bajo quintos or lutes? Bring it on, if there's a market!
But Fender putting their logo on something designed and manufactured overseas that has absolutely nothing to do with Fender's core business or expertise? That's cheapening the brand.

FMIC used to stand for Fender Musical Instrument Corporation, and not Fender Made In China.


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Post subject: Re: Some Hot Rod Series amps Made in China?
Posted: Sat Dec 31, 2016 2:35 am
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arth1 wrote:
FMIC used to stand for Fender Musical Instrument Corporation, and not Fender Made In China.


+1!

And when it does once again, perhaps I'll actually buy something they make. Until that day though......

NO FRIGGIN' WAY!

:x

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Post subject: Re: Some Hot Rod Series amps Made in China?
Posted: Sat Dec 31, 2016 12:35 pm
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Powdered Toast Man wrote:
I don't know who's leading FMIC right now

I can't help but wonder if it is the same people that agreed the specs for the 2015 range of Gibson Les Pauls


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Post subject: Re: Some Hot Rod Series amps Made in China?
Posted: Sat Dec 31, 2016 1:42 pm
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fifty4 wrote:
Powdered Toast Man wrote:
I don't know who's leading FMIC right now

I can't help but wonder if it is the same people that agreed the specs for the 2015 range of Gibson Les Pauls


+1

Gibson isn't immune from the same corporate disease afflicting nearly every industry, not just the manufacturers of musical instruments.

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Post subject: Re: Some Hot Rod Series amps Made in China?
Posted: Sat Dec 31, 2016 4:38 pm
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In my ongoing efforts to minimize the idle noise emitting from my SuperSonic 22, I pulled the reverb tank to replace the cheap patch cable with a higher quality cable.

I thought the SS22's were assembled in the US as their serial numbers are prefixed CR for Corona. Underneath the reverb tank and affixed to the cabinet was a QC sticker dating the amp as 10-02-15. The big surprise? The rest of the label is in Spanish.

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Post subject: Re: Some Hot Rod Series amps Made in China?
Posted: Sun Jan 01, 2017 5:48 am
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Yeah PTM I understand, the quality thing, (certainly part of the end result we see directly in the final product), kind of took a hard left when our friend decided to lecture us idiots about it.

Not to keep beating a dead horse.. but hey you DO KEEP BEATING it don't ya?

You Tomatoes keep pointing to the NO#1 sold amp .... Once again let me reiterate The NO#1 sold AMP in the world! (i.e. that has outsold every other mass produced amp in its class, so much so.... that many competitors world wide copy it's looks and tone stack, and stubbornly state unequivocally! "That the amp is junk???

Why?

Because some "Cork sniffing boutique loving, vintage hyping harpie... says the amp is garbage you all jump on the band wagon? Wow... The quality has gotten better with version III. The Mexcian HRDIII is built better that any American version in the 90's. The leads are dressed out of the factory, the resistors in the channel switching are upgraded, better electrolytic caps etc etc.. Have you Tomatoes even been inside a HRD let alone a Mexican HRD III?

Seems to me....

If out selling all your competitors by a huge margin and dominating the market of "mass-produced amps" with the HRD, thus making huge profits, satisfying a mass of customers by making an affordable amp with way more positives than cons.... (outside of this thread and a few others, the HRD is seen in the positive... try visiting FaceBook, youtube etc etc) if this is going down the wrong path. All the stock holders will say.... Thank God Fender doesn't listen to you "All Knowing Tomatoes"

The Funny thing is... The HRD being the most sold amp out there... it doesn't really need to be defended. There are a ton of guys like me that read all the Tomato posts... snickered and moved along not giving your opinions a second thought (surely that is what I should have done!!!!) What I really find complexing?

A) If Fender is such a money grubbing company? Why come here and post?

B) Fender produces a lot of high-end amps (Pt to Pt) seems that's all your thing... why harp on the HRD? why not invest your time talking about those amps?

C) How ruffled all you tomatoes get, when one guy... comes along and states his opinions (all be it, some of his opinions are based in fact)... but none the less opinions. Who says you "Own" the Fender forum & who made you tomatoes the arbiter and judge of what's legit? Am I missing something????

Is there a "I'm cool avatar" given out here at the forum If you don't express an independent thought? Keep beating that dead horse... just shows how "butt hurt" you tomatoes got... which means my words had/have validity.


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Post subject: Re: Some Hot Rod Series amps Made in China?
Posted: Sun Jan 01, 2017 11:52 am
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pcalugaru: You have already been warned by Fender.
Can you please repost with all the names calling removed? What you're doing is disruptive, and you know this, and you know it's not welcome, and yet you persist?


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Post subject: Re: Some Hot Rod Series amps Made in China?
Posted: Sun Jan 01, 2017 1:15 pm
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Welcome back. We missed you.. Your badgeless black tolex armor does look cool in the back shadows of the columns. And the glint of a red More Drive lamp below your hip warns us that we don’t own the Forum…. We’ll give you that cool avatar.
But Retro is our living history book and deserves respect, regardless of personal opinions. We tomatoes? are tryin to do that for you as well.
I have 200 amp repairs per year. I am in the lucky position of having musicians ask me to open up their gear. Sharing my learning experiences, including mistakes, is my contribution and payback to the music community. Its not vanity and I will be the first to tell you there’s a heluvalot I don’t know about music and gear.


The amps that Retro grew up with are recognized timeless classics for a reason. Let me tell you a story…

Back in another lifetime, there was an abandon stone building outside of LA, in tha canyons of west Mulholland Drive.
Sunday mornings found it the early gathering place for motorcycle riders from all over the city.
Mulholland climbs a steep, windy hill just above the Rock Store, challenging riders with tight turns and steep grades. Wick the power on and my Yamaha RD400 would shut the door on the inside line, passing one or two riders in the middle of turns.
Two miles later we get to the top and turn around. No racing downhill, please. And watch for crotch rockets on their way up.
Back at the Store, we all parked promenade style. Pulled out a thermos of coffee and sat on the stone porch of the defunct store. We talked of porting polishing and racing.
Our ricegrinders were the fastest on the hill and few could compete. Some would be doing wheelstands down the street with a festival atmosphere until the CHP drove by. But the colorful morning parade was a wonder of my youth in the 70s
Around high noon, the rumble of the first Harleys could be heard approaching from a mile away, above the chatter of the crowd.
Their arrival signaled the end of our day and the beginning of theirs. No gangs here. Just shiny choppers and hot women on the back. When they pull a bottle of whisky out of a black leather jacket and she wraps around him, we knew all the fast bikes in the world didn’t mean a thing. We were outclassed. Harleys have an appeal that can’t be explained or justified by logic, yet they succeed like nothing else.
When I turn on my TV and see live music, I see the same is true for old Fenders. You still see them on bandstands by touring professionals everywhere. These guys know what they’re doing and if that means keeping a 50-year-old piece going, that is a significant lesson that shouldn’t be ignored.

The modern amps do a modern job with the state of modern production methods.
There aren’t enough of the old amps to go around for everyone the wants an old one anyway. The HRDX is a fine platform that can be taken many different directions.

The electronics industry was internationalized after WWll. The machines that manufacture components were exported from the USA. The parts quality is pretty consistent worldwide. The labor is minimal for component manufacture. Assembly time is the most labor intensive. In my day, it was students and housewives on the assembly lines. The good paying jobs in engineering were in a different, nicer building.
Fender seems to me to have kept the engineering jobs here. Where it’s built is less controversial to me. They are a minor company using sustainable resources. The controversial electronics are the rare earth mines for TVs and wars in Africa over tantalum. Now I hear there are plans to mine the Alta Plano for lithium


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Post subject: Re: Some Hot Rod Series amps Made in China?
Posted: Sun Jan 01, 2017 1:32 pm
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Sorry guys, looks like we've got it all backwards. As our friend above pointed out, popular = quality.

So that also means that based on sales, the Big Mac is the best quality burger on the market. Also based on sales, the best movie of all time is Gone with the Wind, and followed closely by Avatar. So if you don't think that those things are the best products in their respective industries, well then you're just a cork sniffing loser.

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Post subject: Re: Some Hot Rod Series amps Made in China?
Posted: Sun Jan 01, 2017 1:45 pm
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TimsAudio wrote:
The modern amps do a modern job with the state of modern production methods.
There aren’t enough of the old amps to go around for everyone the wants an old one anyway. The HRDX is a fine platform that can be taken many different directions.

The electronics industry was internationalized after WWll. The machines that manufacture components were exported from the USA. The parts quality is pretty consistent worldwide. The labor is minimal for component manufacture. Assembly time is the most labor intensive. In my day, it was students and housewives on the assembly lines. The good paying jobs in engineering were in a different, nicer building.
Fender seems to me to have kept the engineering jobs here. Where it’s built is less controversial to me. They are a minor company using sustainable resources. The controversial electronics are the rare earth mines for TVs and wars in Africa over tantalum. Now I hear there are plans to mine the Alta Plano for lithium


Some of our points were that the quality of components has nothing to do with globalization of production. There's quality parts available. But when you can knock say, $5 per amp off the production cost by scrimping on materials that no one except a repair tech will ever see, then that's what they do. And a good number of the amps being sold never leave the purchaser's house, so the odds are pretty good that the majority of them will at least make it through the warranty period without fail, after which time it's not the manufacturer's problem. There's a term for that in engineering and product design: Planned Obsolescence. They spec the components based on making sure that average use will last through the stated warranty period. That's the same reason why the washer/dryer/stove/fridge you bought in the 1980's lasted 25 years, but the one you bought 5 years ago already needs to be replaced.

As I stated above, if you want to have an entry level cheap-o-deluxe line of tube amps then that's fine! We all know what they are. But if you're paying for the hand wired, top tier amp, it absolutely should not contain the same components found in the entry level model.

And it's not like quality electronic components are not available. There's at least a handful of transformer makers right here in North America making quality product (Heyboer, Mercury Magnetics, Hammond, Classic Tone, Mojo, to name a few). F&T or Mallory capacitors... Problem is they're $5 a piece instead of say 20 cents.

My amp tech tells me constantly that he's got so many Hot Rod amps coming through his shop that he's sick of working on them. Consistent problems: Fried capacitors, blown resistors, and cooked transformers.

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