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Post subject: Tone Master way too bright
Posted: Mon Mar 28, 2016 8:20 am
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So I just picked up a 97 Tone Master.

Anyone have any ideas on taming the out of control high end on this amp? Here's what I've been able to find this far:

1. Negative feedback loop. I've read around a bit, and this seems to be the most common remedy. Anything I should be concerned about by going this route? Any other changes that this would make besides the high end being tamed a bit?

2. Apparently there are some resistors that are traditionally located on the tube sockets but Fender chose to board mount these and run wires to the sockets. My tech seems to doubt this one other than that it could maybe cause some interference depending upon the environment.

3. After fixing a filter cap issue and studying the schematics a bit, my tech remarked that there is a lot of high pass in the design of this amp and that maybe we could try bypassing some of that. He also said that there were some unusual capacitor values used that could also be attributing to this issue.

4. Leave it alone and move on. I'm not a huge fan of this option. I would really like to have this amp work for me. It has had a mod done by Fender back when the original owner purchased the amp. It has a master volume on the clean channel which allows for some nice breakup without ear splitting volume.

As usual, any thoughts/ideas/opinions are greatly appreciated.

Dave


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Post subject: Re: Tone Master way too bright
Posted: Mon Mar 28, 2016 4:58 pm
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Maybe this will help too.

http://support.fender.com/schematics/guitar_amplifiers/Tone-Master_schematic.pdf


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Post subject: Re: Tone Master way too bright
Posted: Mon Mar 28, 2016 8:26 pm
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Turn the presence off all the way if it has a presence control, and turn the trebles down a big bunch, almost all the way off. Turn the mids up to about 6. Bass on 2 or 3. I have a different amp, an Egnater Tweaker 15 head and I have the trebles turned almost all the way down to zero, and the bass almost all the way up to full, the amp seems perfectly balanced from the high notes to the low notes too. Also buy a Carls Guitar volume box & stick it in the efx loop and turn the amp up a little and the volume box down a bunch, I use the volume box in all of my amps to tame the trebles. Best tones I ever got with those tweaks.....Just a suggestion before you go into a big expense with an amp tech......

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Post subject: Re: Tone Master way too bright
Posted: Mon Mar 28, 2016 8:42 pm
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There’s a lot of smart guys on this forum, that I’m sure have ideas. There is a forum member named BlueSky636 that I know is good at circuit analysis who could contribute on this, and all the regular people who post comments know tons of things. I’m not an engineer. I sure some are. Everyone contributes.

What was this Fender Zinky amp Designed for? From Fender:
The Tone-Master was created for the discriminating player who requires a high powered, high volume
amplifier capable of clean tones, overdriven vintage amp tones as well as heavily overdriven distortion.
It has 2 independent channels, switchable via the front panel A/B switch or the footswitch (provided).


I wouldn’t worry about the grid stoppers, the resistors tied to the output tube grids. Seems like only caps, coils, speakers, transformers, tubes will change the response of the amp. I don’t even see a feedback loop. The amp was not designed that way and I personally wouldn’t bother. That might lower the gain and distortion, or the basic tone of the amp that you might like.

A Bruce Zinky creation, and his goal is, (I’m not sure, see above) perhaps not an overly Fender scooped Bass sounding amp, maybe more Mid-range distortion tones and your idea, it’s just too bright! What about the speakers? Try some older worn-out preamp tubes, they may not be so bright.


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Post subject: Re: Tone Master way too bright
Posted: Mon Mar 28, 2016 8:57 pm
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Have you tried rolling any tubes; true a little less gain goes a long way on tone. I would play w/ V1 & V2, different powers and different brands.


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Post subject: Re: Tone Master way too bright
Posted: Mon Mar 28, 2016 9:14 pm
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Have you tried just turning the Volume knob on your guitar down to about 7 or 8 (instead of leaving it at 10), use that as the default setting and then set up the amp's Tone and Volume controls. Usually that simple approach will eliminate that hard to dial-out high end/ice-pick and will also allow you to turn the amp volume up a bit higher to recover the required volume (which usually also sounds better), many folks completely miss this simple "trick" and start swapping speakers, tubes, pedals etc, while forgetting the knobs on their guitar can often achieve what they needed. It's worth a try.


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Post subject: Re: Tone Master way too bright
Posted: Tue Mar 29, 2016 3:52 am
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Thanks everyone for the ideas and input!

Jackhammer: I guess that I am trying to be this amp to operate outside of its intended design of being an arena rocker. I'm sure the guys that used this amp for that probably just used the clean channel an cranked it. I am using it through a 96 Tone Master 4x12 cabinet, and it does lack the thump that I am used to. Overall would you say negative feedback deadens tone or what? That has been the most common fix that I've been able to find thus far.

Sfceric64: I haven't tried anything with tubes yet. I did read a post somewhere about using at7's instead of ax7's (except for PI).

No457 Snowy: I hadn't thought of dialing back my volume knob on my guitar. I've been playing a long time and have always been a volume knob cranker, so changing no would be weird for me. I'd rather get the amp to fit my needs better. I may just have to admit that maybe this isn't the amp for me no matter what I do.


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Post subject: Re: Tone Master way too bright
Posted: Tue Mar 29, 2016 4:29 am
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Dmerch1969 wrote:

No457 Snowy: I hadn't thought of dialing back my volume knob on my guitar. I've been playing a long time and have always been a volume knob cranker, so changing no would be weird for me. I'd rather get the amp to fit my needs better. I may just have to admit that maybe this isn't the amp for me no matter what I do.


OK but I think it would be more weird to not try it and yet be entertaining all kinds of mods and amp surgery that may not even be required. Just make "7" your new "10". It's also harmless and completely reversible. :lol:


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Post subject: Re: Tone Master way too bright
Posted: Tue Mar 29, 2016 7:46 am
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In reply-

http://www.aikenamps.com/index.php/what ... e-feedback

Thats all I got, couldn't say more than that.


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Post subject: Re: Tone Master way too bright
Posted: Tue Mar 29, 2016 8:21 am
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Jackhammer,

Great link! Thank you very much! All of this stuff seems to have such a fine line between improving and killing the sound/feel of an amp.

Dave


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Post subject: Re: Tone Master way too bright
Posted: Tue Mar 29, 2016 8:47 am
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Personally, I'd stay away from any global or local feedback mods, for this amp [like I stated on other thread]. Many more simpler tweaks you can try, first. Even, a change from the OEM 12AX7 to a nice 5751 maybe all you need.

This amp seems to have multiple gain and EFX stages. GNFB changes may adversely effect the these stages. Depending on where you place the feedback. And how much you use.

Some minor mods to the cathode bypass cap of input stage and/or coupling cap swaps... maybe all you need to do.


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Post subject: Re: Tone Master way too bright
Posted: Tue Mar 29, 2016 8:57 am
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Quote:
Sfceric64: I haven't tried anything with tubes yet. I did read a post somewhere about using at7's instead of ax7's (except for PI).
I would consider a 7025, 5751 in V1orV2 and I would consider trying a12at7 in the V3/PI. None of these changes imo would hurt the amp or be irreversible.

I think you would loose to much gain w/ 12at7 in V1/V2, roughly 40% but it may be the sound you want.
12at7 usually have better balance and higher output but less gain than 12ax7, so they wont drive the output tubes as hard.
I think your output tubes bias pot is more a balance, hopefully your tech biased the v5/v6 and then compared the v4/v7 to the first two. Output tubes could also help tame the tone, but that gets expensive. Whereas a good bias w/ a matched quad is uber importante.

I would honestly say that I do not fully understand the schematics of your amp and that maybe you should try an email to Fender support asking for a summary of changes made up to the current circuit, they might be helpful.


Last edited by sfceric64 on Tue Mar 29, 2016 11:56 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Post subject: Re: Tone Master way too bright
Posted: Tue Mar 29, 2016 9:41 am
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The simple fact that this amp lacks a reverb indicates it is for lead guitar. The input stage is configured for a lead amp as well.
For full range use, increase the value of C1 up to at least 2.2 uF.
Increase C3 to at least .01 or .02uF. Use good poly caps for both.
C8 is 150 pF. A standard tone stack uses a 250pF for a lower treble range. C12 in the drive channel is the same story. Use silver mica.
These changes should reduce shrillness and tone it down. Then put in some good preamp tubes to smooth it further. JJ gold pin, Amperex Bugle Boy, or original Telefunken.
Have fun


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Post subject: Re: Tone Master way too bright
Posted: Tue Mar 29, 2016 11:36 am
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Time for a reality check......

I remember demo'ing one of these Tone Masters in a store when they were first released (along with the companion Dual Professional and Vibro King). It sounded robust, ballsy, potent, and with sufficient growl in half-stack form to compel a Marshall to tuck its head in shame and head back to the barn. Mind you, this amp was fresh from the carton with brand-new Celestions and even with stiff, never-played cones it exhibited no overly bright or shrill tones at any volume level. The interactive tone controls were some of the most versatile that I've ever seen.

My conclusions from the symptoms described in this thread lead me to believe that A) a previous owner has already modded this amp (to its detriment), or B) the amp still has an undiagnosed problem that diddling around with the tone-stack cap values will not address. I'd recommend that you find a competent tech either locally or somewhere on the eastern seaboard that can properly troubleshoot and repair this amp. These Custom Shop editions were the swan song for Fender's once-premier amp division and are deserving of proper maintenance.

Arjay

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Post subject: Re: Tone Master way too bright
Posted: Tue Mar 29, 2016 12:01 pm
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Quote:
a previous owner has already modded this amp (to its detriment)
+1
gets my vote

Adding a master volume, wouldn't been a mod I would have considered. What else was altered when that was modded?


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