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Post subject: hotrod deluxe III
Posted: Fri Dec 25, 2015 2:33 pm
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when switching from clean channel to the drive/more drive channels the tone of the amp gets extremely bright and brash sounding unlike my 2/12 deville , these tones are unusable and to make them usable i have to reset the drive, and master plus all of the tone settings rolling off all of the treble and adding almost all of the mid and bass levels any thoughts on this?


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Post subject: Re: hotrod deluxe III
Posted: Fri Dec 25, 2015 2:52 pm
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I gave up on the drive channel on my HRD version 2 I think. It is only usable at band levels, Instead I use a tube distortion stomp into the clean channel. Best tones I ever got from any amp HRD/CannabisRex/JJ Tubes and I have had Marshalls, Boogies and a plethora of other Fender amps.

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Post subject: Re: hotrod deluxe III
Posted: Sat Dec 26, 2015 2:59 am
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jdchurch wrote:
when switching from clean channel to the drive/more drive channels...i have to reset the drive, and master plus all of the tone settings rolling off all of the treble and adding almost all of the mid and bass levels..


The drive and master only work on the drive channels, they do do not work on the clean channel, so not sure why you would "reset" them when switching channels.

As to the harsh tone on the drive channels, you can certainly tame the drive channels with some lower gain tubes in the preamp/PI section. Namely, change V1 to a 5751, or even a 12AY7, and change V3 (PI) to a 12AT7. For further taming, change V2 to a 5751 or 12AY7. Tubes are numbered from left to right looking at the rear of the amp.

It might take a little experimenting to get the tones just right. I settled on a 5751 in V1, a 12AX7 in V2 and a 12AT7 in V3. The "more drive" is still a bit much for me, but the clean channel and the drive channel are pretty sweet with the aforementioned tubes.

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Post subject: Re: hotrod deluxe III
Posted: Sat Dec 26, 2015 7:23 pm
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was going to try retubing to the 12at7 or 12ay7 was wondering if anybody had any success with this


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Post subject: Re: hotrod deluxe III
Posted: Wed Dec 30, 2015 2:27 am
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The only position that I would use a 12AT7 is V3 (PI). I find that a 12AT7 or 12AY7 in V1 or V2 makes this amp anemic, but it won't hurt anything to try it. Pick up a few tubes, 12AT7, 12AY7 and 5751, and try them.

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Post subject: Re: hotrod deluxe III
Posted: Fri May 27, 2016 8:18 pm
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Brashness... somewhat a good description.

IMO... Fender doesn't do anything without serious thought. Before they market an amp they seriously demo it and measure it with what they want the amp to do. The Joint measure with Celestion probably consisted of several speakers and the 12p-80 won the shoot out. Fender knows that this amp is prized by working musicians. From experience : That Drive channel brashness.... when you crank the amp up to a stage working volume, mellows but cuts through a band mix like a hot knife into butter. (And that is what you want your amp to do!)

Just roll back your treble knob on your guitar. Brashness Gone... I play Telecasters and this amp gels really well with my guitars. One of the reasons I love the HR series. & I have a 0.47 caps on my tone pots... quite standard.

Experienced guitarist dial in their amps to work in concert with their guitars. The better you get, the more your going to work the volume & tone knobs to obtain a good tone (every song). The speaker so far: is fine and gets better when you leave it alone and let it get broken in. Tape yourself in a bad setting and listen to how the amp cuts through everyone else.. then you will look at that brashness in a different light.

Just as paramount to the above: how an amp sounds standing in front of it, and how an amp sounds 20-30 feet away where the audience is (are TWO different things.) The speaker and the cab are effecting your sound and tone just as much as your EQ mix out there in the 20-30 feet range (i.e. the audience land) Amps that sound box'ish standing in front of them at a low volume, can sound full of depth turned up to a stage volume to someone standing in the audience. Or the amp that sounds great EQ'ed at a low volume sounds like garbage and get's the user lost in the band mix when they turn up to a working volume in front of a crowd. So adjust your tone to how the amp sounds at a working volume in audience land (20-30 feet away) & not how it sounds standing in front of the amp. (this should open your eyes to how well the HRD is designed)

Finally.. welcome to Two channel amps.. you will have to dial in both channels to match each other. Every two channel amp I've ever owned you have to do this.


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Post subject: Re: hotrod deluxe III
Posted: Tue May 31, 2016 3:16 pm
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thank everyone for their input, but i'm hardly a newby, been at it over fifty years and half way around the world.
i have changed the v1 to a 5751 which improves the volume curve. but in my opinion the drive/more channels suck on the hrd III, my first generation 212 deville the d/md channels rock and i don't have to tweak in mid song just to dial in the drive...


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Post subject: Re: hotrod deluxe III
Posted: Wed Jun 01, 2016 9:30 am
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in my opinion the drive/more channels suck on the hrd

a fairly common observation on all the Hot Rod Deluxe amps IMHO.

I've got one (4x10) that I bought sometime around 1999/2000?? with a good OD pedal (or 2) that amp is a total beast. I use the "Drive" channel as mostly a volume boost when needed, I just set the gain setting very low, and the adjust the volume for times when I need that little extra push.


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Post subject: Re: hotrod deluxe III
Posted: Wed Jun 01, 2016 5:03 pm
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Quote:
a fairly common observation on all the Hot Rod Deluxe amps IMHO.


Agreed... but I've seen so many comments on the internet on the HRD by people "who didn't know they didn't know" when it came to operating any amp, let alone a HRD.

IMO (close to what you say) if I get the Drive past 6 (on the setting I use) it starts to go all gray and void of tone and dynamics..

A similar thing with all HRD's happens with the volume (Clean or Drive) somewhere after 8 is about as loud as this amp really gets, anything past that point.. IMO isn't louder (IMO... 6 on a 40watt HRD is beyond gigging loud...I don't know of anyone gigging that loud) I once asked a tech "Why make an amp that goes up to 12 if 6 is as loud as anyone one could possibly use?" It was explained to me, it's how Fender does their OT Transformers (the transformer output is matched to the combo’s particular speaker load... I was told by adding a cab you double the load, hence splitting the wattage/power to the different cabs/speakers. To me the guitar player I reason it to mean if 6 (the max volume without a cab ) then with a cab it turns out to be 10 to get the same volume.

However... I'm not special.. if I can make the Drive work (as a OD to add color & dynamics) ... I think most can. I think its how you approach the amp. I don't think many people know that a HRD (Tone stack wise..) as is the Blues Deluxe are a cross between a Tweed & Bassman. Ever notice with a HRD or Blues Deluxe the base response increases with the volume? Hello.... welcome to the Bassman tone stack.

Like many.... I like to play the amp on the clean channel where it starts to breaks up like a 50's Tweed/Bassman and set the drive about a 1/2 to 1 more than the clean volume (If the clean is set at 4 the Drive is set at 4.5 or 5) Then I use the master to match the clean volume. (And use the "more drive" as a boost/accent )

Just looking for "more" OD.. not distortion. I.e to treat the amp like a hot rod'ed Blues Deluxe.. (works for me) IMO... if you keep the Drive in the OD range the EQ stays dynamic and responsive.. and sounds decent.. Not going to say awesome...but to my ears its far from "sucking"

The biggest thing I like about the III is that in the clean channel it breaks up earlier than the older HRD's.


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Post subject: Re: hotrod deluxe III
Posted: Fri Jun 03, 2016 9:08 am
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appreciate the input, just wanted to know if it was my amp or HRDIII in general and that seems to be the issue. thanks!


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Post subject: Re: hotrod deluxe III
Posted: Mon Jun 06, 2016 6:50 am
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pcalugaru wrote:
Quote:
a fairly common observation on all the Hot Rod Deluxe amps IMHO.


Agreed... but I've seen so many comments on the internet on the HRD by people "who didn't know they didn't know" when it came to operating any amp, let alone a HRD.

IMO (close to what you say) if I get the Drive past 6 (on the setting I use) it starts to go all gray and void of tone and dynamics..

A similar thing with all HRD's happens with the volume (Clean or Drive) somewhere after 8 is about as loud as this amp really gets, anything past that point.. IMO isn't louder (IMO... 6 on a 40watt HRD is beyond gigging loud...I don't know of anyone gigging that loud) I once asked a tech "Why make an amp that goes up to 12 if 6 is as loud as anyone one could possibly use?" It was explained to me, it's how Fender does their OT Transformers (the transformer output is matched to the combo’s particular speaker load... I was told by adding a cab you double the load, hence splitting the wattage/power to the different cabs/speakers. To me the guitar player I reason it to mean if 6 (the max volume without a cab ) then with a cab it turns out to be 10 to get the same volume.

However... I'm not special.. if I can make the Drive work (as a OD to add color & dynamics) ... I think most can. I think its how you approach the amp. I don't think many people know that a HRD (Tone stack wise..) as is the Blues Deluxe are a cross between a Tweed & Bassman. Ever notice with a HRD or Blues Deluxe the base response increases with the volume? Hello.... welcome to the Bassman tone stack.

Like many.... I like to play the amp on the clean channel where it starts to breaks up like a 50's Tweed/Bassman and set the drive about a 1/2 to 1 more than the clean volume (If the clean is set at 4 the Drive is set at 4.5 or 5) Then I use the master to match the clean volume. (And use the "more drive" as a boost/accent )

Just looking for "more" OD.. not distortion. I.e to treat the amp like a hot rod'ed Blues Deluxe.. (works for me) IMO... if you keep the Drive in the OD range the EQ stays dynamic and responsive.. and sounds decent.. Not going to say awesome...but to my ears its far from "sucking"

The biggest thing I like about the III is that in the clean channel it breaks up earlier than the older HRD's.


I've never had my 60 watt 4x10 Deville up much past 3... I can't imagine the chaos that would ensue in my band if I try, we're very conscious of our stage/running volume. for a few reasons,, 1: hearing is a good thing, you want to keep that, you don't get a second set of ear drums, and 2: We always put "vocals first" in the mix.

But I digress.

you are spot on, you can make this amp (or any amp) work for you if you really get to know the amp and what it's strengths are.

The 60 watt 4x10 is a bit of a different amp than the 2x12, I did a side by side for quite a while with a 2x12 and the 4x10, I definitely felt that the 4x10 was the right one for me, despite the added weight.

I use a few very good OD pedals, and a modest set of effects. For me, the HRD 4x10 is a total work horse, I can't get anything I need out of it.


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Post subject: Re: hotrod deluxe III
Posted: Mon Jun 06, 2016 6:57 pm
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KidBlast wrote:

I've never had my 60 watt 4x10 Deville up much past 3... I can't imagine the chaos that would ensue in my band if I try, we're very conscious of our stage/running volume. for a few reasons,, 1: hearing is a good thing, you want to keep that, you don't get a second set of ear drums, and 2: We always put "vocals first" in the mix.

But I digress.

you are spot on, you can make this amp (or any amp) work for you if you really get to know the amp and what it's strengths are.

The 60 watt 4x10 is a bit of a different amp than the 2x12, I did a side by side for quite a while with a 2x12 and the 4x10, I definitely felt that the 4x10 was the right one for me, despite the added weight.

I use a few very good OD pedals, and a modest set of effects. For me, the HRD 4x10 is a total work horse, I can't get anything I need out of it.


My friend has gigged a 4x10 HRDeville for years.. An excellent guitarist.. Opened for REO Speedwagon this year at a huge fair. Another friend has used the HR Deville 2x12 for a long time. (he has nothing but good things to say about the HR series) so I thought I'd try the HR series too... I got ML HRDeville (I got a VK212 cab to go with it.) By far the best amp I've played through in 20yrs! (but that's for another thread!) They are work horses... Totally agree with ya "On getting to Know the Amp."

Thinking I needed a back up amp for when I gig, and wanting to experience vibe of a Hot Rod Deluxe (after hearing a lot about the amp.... a lot good...some bad.... ) I got the Hot Rod Deluxe III. (Side note: I found interesting that the Deluxe is a different animal than the ML HRD not just in the control layout not having no Drive channel but its a different tone stack. I didn't expect that) I'm equally glad I got the HRD III. (been playing it a lot!!) It's got its own character.. The Celestion 12p-80 is starting to mellow...being very balanced is going to be a nice speaker. But I thought their is something missing. I just got an ext cab for the amp. Ah HA! the extra speaker was what my ears wanted. For best sound performance, I think Fender designed the Deluxe to be used with an extension cab. (knowing how Fender does their OT Transformers.. for 8ohms but when you add an extension cab the transformer does double duty at 4ohms (Old school way of doing OT transformers) The amps tone gets warmer (the closed cab adds nice bottom.. and the open back of the amp does the treble... nice one, two punch! Probably why your 4x10 deville (or the 2x12) sound really good.


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Post subject: Re: hotrod deluxe III
Posted: Tue Jun 07, 2016 11:44 am
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there is definitely something different that happens when you add an extension cab

I have JTM60 series combo which have different voiced celestians, once you double those up with the matching ext cab, yea.. it's a different animal.

I've always liked to format of a one speaker combo tho, as they tend to have a real focused ambiance. adding another 12" beneath it, yes, that would definitely change a lot.

the thing about amps (especially tube amps) a lot of people may not get how much they can really add to your sound, the pairing of axe, amp, and player (hands, touch / attack) is everything. just with your hands, and your guitars controls, it's crazy how much you can do with no pedals what so ever if you just take the time to sort it all out.


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Post subject: Re: hotrod deluxe III
Posted: Tue Jun 07, 2016 7:40 pm
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KidBlast wrote:
there is definitely something different that happens when you add an extension cab

I have JTM60 series combo which have different voiced celestians, once you double those up with the matching ext cab, yea.. it's a different animal.

I've always liked to format of a one speaker combo tho, as they tend to have a real focused ambiance. adding another 12" beneath it, yes, that would definitely change a lot.

the thing about amps (especially tube amps) a lot of people may not get how much they can really add to your sound, the pairing of axe, amp, and player (hands, touch / attack) is everything. just with your hands, and your guitars controls, it's crazy how much you can do with no pedals what so ever if you just take the time to sort it all out.


So True, So true... :D I'm a Tele player.. so it's one volume and one tone w/ a pick up selector for me. Volume swells to mimic amp tremolo, tone swells.. etc etc... There are so many tones that one can get by just learning to employ the volume & tone knobs. Mellow Jazz tones, Clean sparkling country tones, Creamy bluesy woman tones... etc

I see so many young cats... not knowing.. Always playing w/heavy gain with the volume knob dimed.. usually riding the bridge pup... same goes for their practical "know how" of the amp.. One EQ setting (whatever gets them max gain standing in front of it...being oblivious to what the amp is actually going to do/sound like when they crank the volume to play in front of a crowd) Lol.. But... long long ago I was one of those guys too...


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Post subject: Re: hotrod deluxe III
Posted: Tue Jun 07, 2016 8:42 pm
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pcalugaru wrote:
I see so many young cats... not knowing.. Always playing w/heavy gain with the volume knob dimed.. usually riding the bridge pup... same goes for their practical "know how" of the amp.. One EQ setting (whatever gets them max gain standing in front of it...being oblivious to what the amp is actually going to do/sound like when they crank the volume to play in front of a crowd) Lol.. But... long long ago I was one of those guys too...


+1

Decades ago I remember watching a brief video featuring Eric Clapton doing a demonstration of how he got his voicing from a Les Paul (this was during his Cream era). His explanation of how to achieve the "woman tone" by using the neck pickup and rolling the tone all the way back was very enlightening. At the time I was playing a '66 Strat and a '67 Super Reverb, with a Vox Tone Bender my sole stompbox. I gave Clapton's recommendation a try and lo and behold, it worked. By most measures, a Strat cannot really sound Gibsonesque but by manipulating the Tone Bender's "attack" control and re-EQ'ing my amp's tone stack I got pretty damn close. It's a technique I still use to this day.

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