It is currently Mon Mar 16, 2020 7:13 pm

All times are UTC - 7 hours



Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 24 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next
Go to page 1, 2  Next
Author Message
Post subject: After bragging on my new TRRI........................?
Posted: Sun Nov 08, 2015 7:43 pm
Offline
Aspiring Musician
Aspiring Musician
User avatar

Joined: Fri Feb 06, 2015 10:21 pm
Posts: 394
Location: Oklahoma
Hello everyone - I recently introduced myself to the Forum after lurking for a year and am having lots of fun, until now. I wish to be brief, but thorough enough.

In my intro, I mentioned I owned a brand new TRRI that I purchased in November 2014. I also mentioned that this amp had a problem right out the box with idle noise and how finding the solution to this problem was found in this forum. The fix was replacing V4. I've been proud and happy with this amp. I now know that a TRRI was designed to be absolutely quiet. It's so quiet that after turning off all sources of noise in the house, I can't tell if the thing is on until I stoop down and put my ear to the speaker. This is with my normal settings, guitar plugged in (volume down) and all that. Now no one can tell me that all tube amps make noise. Bull. Not this one.

This amp has never left the house, been in the same spot for months, played about 2 hrs/day at low volume, etc. So what am I blathering on about? - 1) to rule out some things and 2) to lay the groundwork and focus on the real problem. With that, today I've been playing and practicing on and off. A little while ago, I turn the amp on, waited a bit, and flipped the standby. WOAH! Unimaginable noises burst forth at a level that had to be full blast. I'm still looking for the dog (she was sleeping so peaceful right next to it). I gather myself and quickly turned it off. Be calm I say. So being better prepared, I try again. You just can't be prepared for that. Off again. So I switched outlets. Same. I look at fuse. Good. I take out V1 & V2. Same. Something tells me the bad thing is happening before the tubes. Is this correct? I also checked speaker connections. All good. I'm not sure how to check reverb tank and would that have anything to do with it anyway?

Now let me describe the noise as best I can from my short listening experience. This is with everything at "0" and nothing plugged in including footswitch - very loud POP(s) and seriously LOUD; I can hear reverb or maybe it's rattling around due to the explosions; there's a sizzling kind of electronic sound. That's all I dared listen to before turning off.

That's about all I know without leaving standby on for a little longer time. I don't want to destroy anything that may still be good. This is all I would tell a tech except to answer his questions and that's why I started here. I will take it to a tech eventually/regardless of outcome here. Are the problems I read about as numerous as they appear? I thought I was one of the fortunates, but not. Shipping boxes are in the basement.

Please ask me questions and I will try to comply to any suggestions.

I appreciate any help you can offer and I thank you in advance. I am so bummed. :(


Top
Profile
Fender Play Winter Sale 2020
Post subject: Re: After bragging on my new TRRI........................?
Posted: Mon Nov 09, 2015 3:08 am
Offline
Rock Icon
Rock Icon
User avatar

Joined: Fri Feb 05, 2010 4:31 am
Posts: 14049
Location: Province de Québec, Canada
All I can say is check all tubes , if they are all good maybe a bad solder to ground ...You need to see a qualified tech .


Top
Profile
Post subject: Re: After bragging on my new TRRI........................?
Posted: Mon Nov 09, 2015 7:45 am
Offline
Rock Star
Rock Star
User avatar

Joined: Sat Jul 03, 2010 2:18 pm
Posts: 6544
Prolly is a solder issue. You can try this. Remove the tubes associated with the reverb and tremolo parts of the amp. These are V3 (12AT7), V4 (12AX7) and V5 (12AX7) . Now, try turning on amp --- if the noise is still present, you know it's not in the part of the circuit associated with these tubes. If the noise stops --- you know the noise is coming from somewhere in the reverb or vibrato sections. Pull & replace tubes, with amp off. I like using a glove to prevent burning my fingers.

Now, put V5 back in. Noise? No? Then, put V4 back in. Keep replacing the tubes until you get the noise back. You are trying to isolate which part of the circuit maybe the problem.

No luck with this test? Try pulling V1 (12AX7). No noise? This is where the problem lay. Still noise? Pull V2.

Still have problems? Replace all tubes and pull the phase inverter (12AT7), V6.

You can pull the 6L6GCs one at a time. Just to briefly check for the noise.

At least, you now may know where the problem lies. This will help the tech.


Good luck with that! :mrgreen:


Top
Profile
Post subject: Re: After bragging on my new TRRI........................?
Posted: Mon Nov 09, 2015 10:20 am
Offline
Aspiring Musician
Aspiring Musician
User avatar

Joined: Fri Feb 06, 2015 10:21 pm
Posts: 394
Location: Oklahoma
stratele52 wrote:
All I can say is check all tubes , if they are all good maybe a bad solder to ground ...You need to see a qualified tech .
Bad solder would be my first guess. I pulled V1, V2, & V4 last night and same thing.


Top
Profile
Post subject: Re: After bragging on my new TRRI........................?
Posted: Mon Nov 09, 2015 10:24 am
Offline
Aspiring Musician
Aspiring Musician
User avatar

Joined: Fri Feb 06, 2015 10:21 pm
Posts: 394
Location: Oklahoma
BMW2002Ti wrote:
Prolly is a solder issue.........keep replacing the tubes until you get the noise back. You are trying to isolate which part of the circuit maybe the problem....
My vote is solder issue. I pulled V1, V2, & V4 last night and same thing.


Top
Profile
Post subject: Re: After bragging on my new TRRI........................?
Posted: Mon Nov 09, 2015 10:40 am
Offline
Rock Star
Rock Star
User avatar

Joined: Sat Jul 03, 2010 2:18 pm
Posts: 6544
Pull V3 and try. This often is the culprit, as the 12AT7 reverb driver has pins 2 & 7 tied together by a solder point between the two tangs. I've seen this folded over tang with a cracked solder in several amps that display your amp's symptoms.

In any event, it's off to a good tech.


Top
Profile
Post subject: Re: After bragging on my new TRRI........................?
Posted: Mon Nov 09, 2015 10:50 am
Offline
Aspiring Musician
Aspiring Musician
User avatar

Joined: Fri Feb 06, 2015 10:21 pm
Posts: 394
Location: Oklahoma
Thank you for the replies and suggestions. I was going to continue checking the rest of the tubes today and pulled the amp to the middle of the room to work on. One more try. As I brace myself and put the dog out, I timidly flipped the switch (after warm up) and nothing. Sweet nothing. Plug in guitar and the amp is back. Now I'm perplexed, glad and very afraid. I'm afraid because now I know this thing has the potential of leveling the neighborhood without notice.

For now, I see no sense in hauling this off to a tech and never being able to reproduce the noise. Let me re-emphasize something about this noise. It is very loud. No one would/could possibly want to endure this for more than a second unless they wear extreme protection gear.

Again thank you. This forum is a wealth of knowledge. I went online and searched other forums for similar problems. Needless to say, some of the comments were so ridiculously funny and off the wall, I had a good laugh and was able to sleep. :lol:


Top
Profile
Post subject: Re: After bragging on my new TRRI........................?
Posted: Mon Nov 09, 2015 11:03 am
Offline
Rock Icon
Rock Icon
User avatar

Joined: Wed Mar 31, 2010 12:48 am
Posts: 26417
Location: Tombstone Territory
Based on your latest observations, I'd opine that you have a bad solder joint somewhere, perhaps more than one. They can be a sumbitch to isolate and locate so have plenty of patience on hand.

Arjay

_________________
"Here's why reliability is job one: A great sounding amp that breaks down goes from being a favorite piece of gear to a useless piece of crap in less time than it takes to read this sentence." -- BRUCE ZINKY


Top
Profile
Post subject: Re: After bragging on my new TRRI........................?
Posted: Mon Nov 09, 2015 12:13 pm
Offline
Rock Star
Rock Star
User avatar

Joined: Sat Jul 03, 2010 2:18 pm
Posts: 6544
LawFlow wrote:
Thank you for the replies and suggestions. I was going to continue checking the rest of the tubes today and pulled the amp to the middle of the room to work on. One more try. As I brace myself and put the dog out, I timidly flipped the switch (after warm up) and nothing. Sweet nothing. Plug in guitar and the amp is back. Now I'm perplexed, glad and very afraid. I'm afraid because now I know this thing has the potential of leveling the neighborhood without notice.


Believe me, I KNOW. There are a couple of weak points in most Fender amps (including vintage black and silverface ones). It's the interconnections between the two anode plates of the duo-triodes. Specifically, the reverb driver and the phase inverter. Both usually 12AT7s.

They simply fold over the socket tangs and solder them together. Problem is, if the solder is cold the tangs will start to pull the contact apart. Since the tangs have spring-like tension when bent over.

The closer the bad solder is to the input jack... the LOUDER the pop. Since the noise is amplified the most through all the gain & EFX stages. This usually means the reverb driver 12AT7.

I remember a Bandmaster Reverb that I worked on, would randomly pop. The pop was always full loudness --- regardless of where the volume control was. Now, this pop through a 4 x 12 cab could wake the dead, ten miles away. It would scare my son so bad, he'd start to cry. Even, through an 12-inch speaker sitting on the work bench, the pop was so loud --- dust would fly off the speaker.

Anyhow, to fix this problem one needs to pinch the two tang together with a small needle nose plier. Then, solder the joint. I actually dabbed epoxy on a couple of the earlier amps with this problem. Lately, I check every amp I've work on for this issue.

You could try this for sanity sake. Get a CHEAP 8-inch speaker. I like the ones that come OEM in Champs and Vibro-Champs. They are worthless in the amp. But, nice on the bench. You fry one? No problem. You were going to toss it anyways.

If the amp pops hooked to the 8-inch (out of a cab) --- it'll still scare you, but not the neighbors down the street. Or the ones on the next block.

Sorry, for the rambling. Good luck with amp.

BTW... my bet is this started happening as soon as the weather cooled. Metal shrinks as temp drops. Exposing weak contacts.

Sorry, for the rambling.


Top
Profile
Post subject: Re: After bragging on my new TRRI........................?
Posted: Mon Nov 09, 2015 2:19 pm
Offline
Rock Icon
Rock Icon
User avatar

Joined: Wed Mar 31, 2010 12:48 am
Posts: 26417
Location: Tombstone Territory
Ramble on, Steve.

Regardless, that is sage advice.

8)

Arjay

_________________
"Here's why reliability is job one: A great sounding amp that breaks down goes from being a favorite piece of gear to a useless piece of crap in less time than it takes to read this sentence." -- BRUCE ZINKY


Top
Profile
Post subject: Re: After bragging on my new TRRI........................?
Posted: Mon Nov 09, 2015 4:56 pm
Offline
Aspiring Musician
Aspiring Musician
User avatar

Joined: Fri Feb 06, 2015 10:21 pm
Posts: 394
Location: Oklahoma
Retroverbial wrote:
Ramble on, Steve.

Regardless, that is sage advice.

8)

Arjay
Amen! Ramble on. I'm soaking it up. I have spent the past year trying to learn as much as I can. Mainly to prevent death and mayhem to myself, to not destroy the amp or components, and to not do something that voids the warranty. So far so good. For example, I'm glad I knew not to unplug the speakers while the amp is on (my initial thought process). Also, it's good to be able to carry-on a conversation with folks like you. A couple of questions:
- Yesterday, I removed V1, V2, & V4 to further test the amp. From something I read, I thought that removal of V1&V2 would disconnect the current from progressing to the other tubes and eliminate the problem being tubes. It sounds like that is not true. I also read that V1 is for the normal channel and V2 for vibrato channel and you could disable 1 or 2 or both. Is this incorrect?
- To test with a junk speaker, would I connect to the speaker input and not external? That seems right.
For now, I'll not mess with it and wait & see if/when it acts up again. It's working great at the moment. I have some spare preamp tubes, a speaker and my son knows how to solder. Maybe we can do a DIY, keeping in mind the void warranty issue.

I have more questions, but I'll save those for down the road. My TRRI defies all the negatives I've read about it. It's virtually noiseless except for the single coils on my guitar and even that is very quiet. It has this rich punchy sound that's hard to describe and best of all, I can play at a very low volume at night and it still keeps that rich punchy tone. It's a keeper and I really want to keep it. Again, thank you.:wink:


Top
Profile
Post subject: Re: After bragging on my new TRRI........................?
Posted: Mon Nov 09, 2015 6:27 pm
Offline
Rock Icon
Rock Icon
User avatar

Joined: Wed Mar 31, 2010 12:48 am
Posts: 26417
Location: Tombstone Territory
If you're up for it LF you might unplug the amp, pull the chassis out, discharge the electrolytic caps, then go hunting for marginal solder joints armed with an optivisor and a pair of tweezers and/or hemostats. Gently tug on each solder joint and use the magnifier to spot any wonky welds. Also, there are a number of ribbon connectors linking the main board to the control panel and trannies. Confirm that each of those is correctly and firmly seated to its intended terminal block. Re-heat and re-flow any solder joints that look bad. Do the same with the wiring at each tube socket. Do not overheat the joints; a 40- to 50-watt pencil should be sufficient.

Arjay

_________________
"Here's why reliability is job one: A great sounding amp that breaks down goes from being a favorite piece of gear to a useless piece of crap in less time than it takes to read this sentence." -- BRUCE ZINKY


Top
Profile
Post subject: Re: After bragging on my new TRRI........................?
Posted: Mon Nov 09, 2015 8:06 pm
Offline
Aspiring Musician
Aspiring Musician
User avatar

Joined: Fri Feb 06, 2015 10:21 pm
Posts: 394
Location: Oklahoma
Retroverbial wrote:
If you're up for it LF you might unplug the amp, pull the chassis out, discharge the electrolytic caps, then go hunting for marginal solder joints armed with an optivisor and a pair of tweezers and/or hemostats. Gently tug on each solder joint and use the magnifier to spot any wonky welds. Also, there are a number of ribbon connectors linking the main board to the control panel and trannies. Confirm that each of those is correctly and firmly seated to its intended terminal block. Re-heat and re-flow any solder joints that look bad. Do the same with the wiring at each tube socket. Do not overheat the joints; a 40- to 50-watt pencil should be sufficient.

Arjay

I'm not sure if I'm up for that (warranty). However, what I'm going to do is "scrapbook" this entire thread for the dreaded time this problem shows itself again (and it will). I'll have this as a paper trail with detailed analysis of the problem and possible solutions. Since it's under warranty, and hopefully it will cost me nothing, the tech may be able to shorten his diagnostic time and have the amp back to me quicker. It most cases, I would prefer a replacement if offered, but can I be assured that the replacement will be as quiet and sound as good? Don't know. Fender only lists 2 service centers in the entire state of OK. One's in Tulsa and the other in Oklahoma City. Neither is a GC. I wonder what's up with that? I bought it online anyway.

Once again, thanks so much.


Top
Profile
Post subject: Re: After bragging on my new TRRI........................?
Posted: Mon Nov 09, 2015 10:44 pm
Offline
Rock Icon
Rock Icon
User avatar

Joined: Wed Mar 31, 2010 12:48 am
Posts: 26417
Location: Tombstone Territory
I sympathize, LF.

We have only two authorized Fender service centers here in AZ as well and my buddy in Tucson runs the shop that covers the southern counties of the state. I don't own any new amps so warranty claims are not an issue for me -- in those rare instances when it's something I can't diagnose and fix myself, I let him do the heavy lifting.

Arjay

_________________
"Here's why reliability is job one: A great sounding amp that breaks down goes from being a favorite piece of gear to a useless piece of crap in less time than it takes to read this sentence." -- BRUCE ZINKY


Top
Profile
Post subject: Re: After bragging on my new TRRI........................?
Posted: Mon Jan 04, 2016 11:32 am
Offline
Aspiring Musician
Aspiring Musician
User avatar

Joined: Fri Feb 06, 2015 10:21 pm
Posts: 394
Location: Oklahoma
Hi there and Happy New Year!

It's been almost 2 months since my last post regarding the recent explosions from my TRRI. I am crossing my fingers, but I've not heard a peep since then. I will swear to you that this thing had one last belch even after pulling V1, V2 and V4 (empty sockets). I didn't document that so it doesn't matter. I replaced the stock V2 and V4 tubes (GT rebranded JJ ECC83-S's) with Tung-Sol 12AX7's and the change is phenomenal. Not only have I not had anymore loud noises, the amp is even more quiet than it was before and sounds so good. I think "musical" is how to describe it. To test noise level on channel 2, I turned the volume to 10, bright "on", treb 6, mid 6, bass 3, rev 3 and nothing plugged in and the only noise was some elevated hiss.

I will use this post as evidence to myself that the '65 Twin Reverb Reissue is supposed to be like this (quiet and musical) and anything short of this standard is not acceptable. Meanwhile, I will still retain all of your excellent solutions for the original problem which in the back of my mind is still lurking to get me when I least expect it.


Top
Profile
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 24 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next
Go to page 1, 2  Next

All times are UTC - 7 hours

Fender Play Winter Sale 2020

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to: