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Post subject: Fender 6G15 Reverb Unit - spring resonance problems on stage
Posted: Mon Oct 27, 2014 10:08 am
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I recently started playing live shows with a 1966 Fender spring reverb unit (6G15 model), but like I thought this seems to be really difficult, if not impossible... Even on a small stage the bass frequencies (FOH sub speakers, bas amp, kick drum, etc...) tend to resonate with the extreme sensitive spring in the reverb unit in that way that it makes that thunder-like sound so typical for spring verbs. A good friend of mine, who is also a professional musician, also experimented with the Fender verb unit for live shows and always ended up with that same problem. He even tried to tie the unit to rubber strings in every possible way to damp the vibrations of the bass, but still it seems to be impossible to prevent the spring from vibrating during any live stage show.
Now, I know there are good effect pedals out there, or I can play a Princeton Reverb instead of a non-reverb Princeton and just get rid of the extented Fender reverb unit, but I'd just like to know if it is possible to use that unit without the springs starting to vibrate at bass frequencies and producing that loud thundering sound.
Would it be something that I solder something in my Princeton amp so that I can put the reverb unit after the preamplification? How come in the first place the spring in a Princeton Reverb Amp is not that sensitive like the spring in an extented reverb cap? Any help or advice most welcome!


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Post subject: Re: Fender 6G15 Reverb Unit - spring resonance problems on s
Posted: Mon Oct 27, 2014 2:22 pm
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I think I would start with trying to decouple the reverb unit from whatever it's sitting on. Vibrations can transfer over onto the springs and contribute to the problem. There are a few things out in the market that can help with this. I'd also maybe try fitting some acoustic absorption material around the reverb tank to help keep those low frequencies from reaching the springs. I'm not too familiar with how the tank sits in the cabinet but hopefully this helps, that is if you haven't already tried it.

Good luck.

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Post subject: Re: Fender 6G15 Reverb Unit - spring resonance problems on s
Posted: Mon Oct 27, 2014 5:52 pm
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Socal is onto something here. Dick Dale actually hangs his reverb unit from the ceiling! Now I am guessing most bar owners aren't going to let you do that.

I have used my Fender Reverb unit in a couple jams with my 66 Bassman and I put a thick folded towel underneath the unit. I also put it a good five feet from anything else (including the bass player and drummer) and it kept the springs pretty stable and isolated as needed. Worth a shot if nothing else.

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Post subject: Re: Fender 6G15 Reverb Unit - spring resonance problems on s
Posted: Mon Oct 27, 2014 6:57 pm
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You could also try a very heavy slab of wood or stone material between the Reverb Unit and what is it sitting atop. And use rubber decoupling-isolation sorbothane feet between the slab and the reverb unit.


http://www.amazon.com/Isolate-It-Sorbot ... MWEZKQ3NWY


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Post subject: Re: Fender 6G15 Reverb Unit - spring resonance problems on s
Posted: Tue Oct 28, 2014 4:04 am
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Yeah, seems like Dick Dale used to do that: http://www.guitargeek.com/dick-dale-guitar-rig-and-gear-setup-2000/

Still I'd like to know if it is a common problem that can only be solved by these kind of crazy methodes or if it is something that can be solved in a more electronical way (changing tubes, patching the verb unit in a different part of the circuitry of my guitar amp, ...). Does anybody know what the electronical difference is between a Fender Princeton Reverb and a Fender Princeton non-reverb in combination with a Reverb Unit?


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Post subject: Re: Fender 6G15 Reverb Unit - spring resonance problems on s
Posted: Tue Oct 28, 2014 8:51 am
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Now, since I don't have this thunder-like issue with my 1968 Princeton Reverb, just for a test, I changed reverb tanks. The Princeton Reverb tank is now in my 6G15 Reverb unit and guess what... All works great. No resonance problems at all, even when I jump around like a madman, the reverb is dead quiet and sounds fantastic. I really have to kick the unit to cause that thunder-like sound, just like I would have to kick my Princeton.
So, why is that Princeton Reverb tank much less sensitive than the 6G15 tank? Both look to be in good condition, but I see that the coils and transducers are a bit different. Maybe the input and output impedances are different? Maybe the impedance can be related to the sensitivity of the springs?
Too bad there are no real serial numbers on the tanks, so I can't tell what types they are.
Princeton Reverb tank says: 6641 on the bottom, F on the inside and 22 and 40 on the outside. All printed in ink.
6G15 tank has nothing at all, no numbers anywhere... but it looks like the tank is not original...

Anyone any thought?


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Post subject: Re: Fender 6G15 Reverb Unit - spring resonance problems on s
Posted: Tue Oct 28, 2014 10:50 am
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The original tank in the Reverb Unit prolly had some loosy-goosy component. Prolly associated with the transducers. Those small transformers on each end of the springs.

Anyhow, something is microphonic in that tank. Closer inspection may find it. And there could be a quick fix, for the issue.


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Post subject: Re: Fender 6G15 Reverb Unit - spring resonance problems on s
Posted: Wed Oct 29, 2014 5:57 am
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bram9206 wrote:
So, why is that Princeton Reverb tank much less sensitive than the 6G15 tank? Both look to be in good condition, but I see that the coils and transducers are a bit different. Maybe the input and output impedances are different? Maybe the impedance can be related to the sensitivity of the springs?

Anyone any thought?


This is pure speculation based on what I know about sound control in designing buildings and just visually inspecting my own 6G15 tank and my PR.

The Reverb Tank in the 6G15 is basically suspended in the cabinet. There is a slide latch to lock it in place when you transport it. (You already know this…. hang with me. HaHa). But basically the actual tank is exposed and spring connected to the cabinet. Any vibration will travel through to the cab and basically shake the tank. You probably can replicate the "Thunder" just by picking up the unit and moving it about if you're not using kid gloves. Everyone's comments about trying to isolate the Reverb unit from adjoining surfaces is all solid advice.

Now the reverb tank on the Combo Amps, such as the Princeton Reverb, sit quietly in the bottom of the cabinet wrapped in a leather/plastic padded bag. This provides the isolation necessary for the tank not to be affected by vibrations from adjoining surfaces…. or least controls it much better than the hangy style connection in the 6G15 unit.

This "Thunder" issue probably explains why Fender stopped production of the external Reverb Unit in 1966 and the first reissue in 1976 was short-lived. It seems evident that they are great for studio use, but for public performance purposes there is clearly an issue.

I don't play out…. so I can speak to the transference/vibration issue you are experiencing directly, but I know my external Reverb Unit does no like to get jostled and I'm pretty careful about handling it when I'm playing through it. I can only imagine what it sounds like when your drummer or the bass player is shaking the stage with those big bass notes and there is nothing but suspension springs between the stage and the reverb tank. :D


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Post subject: Re: Fender 6G15 Reverb Unit - spring resonance problems on s
Posted: Wed Oct 29, 2014 6:27 am
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Could be, but one problem. When he switched tanks from the PR to the Reverb Unit --- the noise problem went away. At least, that is what I gather.

That would narrow it down to the tank, itself. No?


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Post subject: Re: Fender 6G15 Reverb Unit - spring resonance problems on s
Posted: Wed Oct 29, 2014 6:50 am
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BMW2002Ti wrote:
Could be, but one problem. When he switched tanks from the PR to the Reverb Unit --- the noise problem went away. At least, that is what I gather.

That would narrow it down to the tank, itself. No?


That would seem to be more of an electronic component issue….. which is admitted out of my range of knowledge (did not read that he switched tanks).

Bram9206 - did you leave the PR tank in its bag or suspend it in the 6G15 cabinet like the original tank?


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