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Post subject: Re: 12AX7/7025 Tubes
Posted: Tue Apr 22, 2014 5:49 am
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You know, the 5751 might be just what my Vibrolux needed... in the past I've tried this tube in my other amps and didn't really care much for the tone but in my Vibrolux, which I find a little too warm sounding, it really cleaned things up! Even dimed the amp sounded great! So I'll have to look for some nicer 5751 tubes... and of course, the ones Bimmer recommended are not easy to find! :( I'll keep looking for that Raytheon with the windmill getter...


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Post subject: Re: 12AX7/7025 Tubes
Posted: Tue Apr 22, 2014 6:23 am
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Raytheon black plate JAN-CRP 5751's were some of the best made. Problem is finding good testing, quiet ones these days. Some notes: The "Windmill" or "Propeller" getter rings one were always BP and two-mica. Raytheon also made some very good triple-mica, BP, square-getter 5751's. If you go this route, must be the TMBP versions. Note the distinctive anode box-plate shape. There are counterfeit Raytheon's out there (re-labeled Sovteks and Chinese tubes, mostly). Sometimes, recent gray plate GE's. So know the internal guts of this tube, before laying out hard earned cash. :mrgreen:

Beware of permanent painted logos on the tubes. Raytheon always used a chalky, easily removed paint on their 5751's.

In the early 1960's, to help fulfill Defense Department demands, Raytheon opened a manufacturing plant in Japan. These tubes are very good, also. As they met the tough USAF standards, for vibration and high altitude performance (mostly performance in very cold environments). These Japanese Raytheon tubes had yellow lettering. The US made ones are red lettered.


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Two-mica, "windmill" getter:


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The TMBP, square getter:

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Post subject: Re: 12AX7/7025 Tubes
Posted: Tue Apr 22, 2014 6:37 am
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Japanese (under license) made Raytheon CK-5751's.

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TMGP:

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Two-mica BP:

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Post subject: Re: 12AX7/7025 Tubes
Posted: Sun Apr 27, 2014 6:47 am
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Thanks again Bimmer! Still no luck finding any Raytheon 5751...

What are your thoughts on the GE TMBP 5751? Or some of the other ones out there, like RCA or Sylvania 5751? Is TMBP always the best way to go? I think you mentioned the gold labeled Sylvania before, so I'll look for that one too...

Well after two weeks the Psvane finally showed up yesterday!

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I'll report back when I get the chance to try 'em out sometime today.


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Post subject: Re: 12AX7/7025 Tubes
Posted: Sun Apr 27, 2014 7:16 am
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Those PSVANE sure come in a fancy box. Guess they are trying to follow the old Western Electric tradition. I've seen the wooden boxes --- alone --- of old 1930's WE 300B priced on EBay for $300. Crazy.

Be interested in your thoughts on the PSVANE.

As for 5751, the tone can vary from tube-to-tube, in the same lot. TMGP usually take a long time to break-in (regardless of manufacturer). Initially, they may sound too compressed. Little headroom or clean high notes. With time, these GP 5751 mellow out & have a much wider frequency response.

TMBP tend to sound good from the get-go. GE was the originator of the 5751, for the Air Force specs. Their 5-star version of the TMBP is very good tube. IMHO, their later gray plates don't match the earlier black plates. But like I said, it can be most tube dependent. And I just didn't have the time or $$$ to stock up on a bunch of GE 5751 to try out. Raytheon made 5751 gives a better, more consistent tone regardless of lot or year made. IME, of course.


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Post subject: Re: 12AX7/7025 Tubes
Posted: Sun Apr 27, 2014 10:24 am
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It depends on the particular amp, application and your ears. If you can find a new production tube that you like, it's better than spending a fortune on NOS tubes. It would suck to spend hundreds on a Telefunken just to find out you didn't like it. Chinese 12ax7's are good. Tungsols are good, but not in all positions.


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Post subject: Re: 12AX7/7025 Tubes
Posted: Sun Apr 27, 2014 10:40 am
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Krankster wrote:
It depends on the particular amp, application and your ears. If you can find a new production tube that you like, it's better than spending a fortune on NOS tubes. It would suck to spend hundreds on a Telefunken just to find out you didn't like it. Chinese 12ax7's are good. Tungsols are good, but not in all positions.



+1 , from $65 to $99 for this pair of PSVANE


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Post subject: Re: 12AX7/7025 Tubes
Posted: Sun Apr 27, 2014 6:01 pm
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stratele52 wrote:
Krankster wrote:
It depends on the particular amp, application and your ears. If you can find a new production tube that you like, it's better than spending a fortune on NOS tubes. It would suck to spend hundreds on a Telefunken just to find out you didn't like it. Chinese 12ax7's are good. Tungsols are good, but not in all positions.



+1 , from $65 to $99 for this pair of PSVANE



I thought the same until recently when a brand new Tung Sol in V2 failed catastrophically :mrgreen:


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Post subject: Re: 12AX7/7025 Tubes
Posted: Sun Apr 27, 2014 6:33 pm
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Thanks for the 5751 info Bimmer!

Ok, so I got to try the fancy Psvane this afternoon and compared them to the GL and Telefunken 12AX7 I had.

The Psvane are some very nice tubes! They don't have the gain of the GL, are extremely quiet, a little warmer maybe, seemed to have less output, very sweet top end and very well balanced! They really do shine when you dime the amp, everything stayed nice and tight, the GL got a little too distorted and the bass got kinda boomy as you got louder. However the GL sounded heavenly if you kept the volume around 6-7 or lower. I really can't say one is better than the other, they're both great and have different tones, so if you plan to dime the amp, then the Psvane is the winner IMO. I don't use pedals, so I tend to turn the amp up to get it to break up. I have tried my amp with my BB Preamp pedal to push the front end some, and the GL worked well even when pushed, but the volume was kept below 6. I didn't use the BB Preamp with the Psvane today.

Here's what I tried...

- '67 Vibrolux Reverb + Strat

Psvane: Clean, smooth, extremely quiet, very sweet top end, very balanced. Excellent when dimed.
GL: More gain, more output, not as quiet, great bass, very sweet top end but different, more ballsy in a way, and more sustain. Results were different when the amp was dimed.
Telefunken: Clean, smooth, extremely quiet, warmer sounding. Probably the best when dimed.

- Vibrolux Reverb + 345 (both V1 and V2 had the same tubes)

Psvane: Based on the results I had with the Strat I expected those tubes to be great for my 345, I was disappointed. They did not work well for some reason. They stayed kinda clean, but it wasn't anything special.
GL: very rich sounding, ballsy and mean, but things got way out of control when the volume was past 6
Telefunken: Perfect match for that guitar! Only tube that could handle the two humbuckers running at the same time when the amp was dimed. Still would like it to be a little brighter...

I kept the same Telefunken in V4 during all tests, to keep things equal.

Then I tried the GL and Psvane in my '75 Deluxe Reverb...

- Deluxe Reverb + Strat

Psvane: same as above, loved the tone
GL: same as above, but the 6V6 breakup was sweeter sounding, so it didn't sound as bad dimed.

- Deluxe Reverb + 345

Psvane: after being disappointed in the Vibrolux I expected the same results... boy was I wrong! It was magical! The RCA 6V6GTA and those Chinese 12AX7 combo was perfect for the 345! At any volume, and specially dimed! Wow!!!!
GL: same as above, a little too crazy when dimed but very sweet at lower volumes.

There you have it. Overall, very impressed with both new production tubes. For a cleaner tone I would go for the Psvane, and for a mean sounding tone and more output I'd go for the Gold Lion. The GLs are better suited for a Strat IMO, if you play clean like I do...

The two tubes side by side

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Post subject: Re: 12AX7/7025 Tubes
Posted: Sun Apr 27, 2014 6:37 pm
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Nikola,

I've seen that happen in cheaper new tubes. The seal between the pins and glass fails. Best to lube the socket with a good contact cleaner. Pull and insert the tube straight up-&-down. Avoid rocking the tube. The sealed points are not are tough as other new tubes and most older tubes.


Cedar,

Thanks, for the review! I'm eager to try that PSVANE, too. I also, like clean tone with nice, fine detail. Ppl have posted that the GL has a bit more overtones, when pushed, than the PSVANE. More character, for lack of a better word.


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Post subject: Re: 12AX7/7025 Tubes
Posted: Sun Apr 27, 2014 7:14 pm
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Cedar....Now that is a tube and tone report! So if I am reading this all correctly, the Gold Lions and Telefunkins are some of the best new affordable preamp tubes out there.

Thanks for this valuable information.

T2

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Post subject: Re: 12AX7/7025 Tubes
Posted: Sun Apr 27, 2014 8:37 pm
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BMW2002Ti wrote:
Cedar,

Thanks, for the review! I'm eager to try that PSVANE, too. I also, like clean tone with nice, fine detail. Ppl have posted that the GL has a bit more overtones, when pushed, than the PSVANE. More character, for lack of a better word.


The GL, like the Mullard RI, is very "rich" sounding, full of character and more ballsy, and yes more overtones or harmonics I guess. But so is the Psvane, specially when pushed, but not as much as the GL, it is cleaner/clearer sounding and just sounds very balanced.

T2Stratman wrote:
Cedar....Now that is a tube and tone report! So if I am reading this all correctly, the Gold Lions and Telefunkins are some of the best new affordable preamp tubes out there.

Thanks for this valuable information.

T2


The Gold Lion and Psvane are the new production tubes I tried. The Telefunken tubes are original tubes from the 60s.

Up to this point the Mullard RI have been my favorite new production. I've tried the usual, EHX, JJ, Tung-Sol, , Sovtek, GT... none of them were anything special IMO. So it was either NOS or the Mullard RI. But I got tired of not being able to find decent or real NOS tubes so I just stuck with the Mullards, but they're just not that reliable and can get too microphonic, and there's no guarantee you'll get a good tube, even new.

My search was to find clean and bright 12AX7 tubes for my old amps, both GL and Psvane are not exactly what I'm looking for, but I'm glad I got to try them and I will continue using them based on the tone I'm looking for that day :) the 5751 is the only tube that got me close, so I'll need to try a couple more to find the "one".

For me, spending $40-50 a tube that's guaranteed to sound good, that isn't microphonic, and very quiet is well worth it. It sure beats spending $50+ or even $100+ on a NOS tube and not getting what you hoped for... I just hope these new tubes will last a little longer. I don't expect them to last 50 years like some of the vintage tubes I have, but at least a few years and not a few months or weeks!


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Post subject: Re: 12AX7/7025 Tubes
Posted: Mon Apr 28, 2014 1:38 am
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cedarblues wrote:

For me, spending $40-50 a tube that's guaranteed to sound good, that isn't microphonic, and very quiet is well worth it. It sure beats spending $50+ or even $100+ on a NOS tube and not getting what you hoped for... I just hope these new tubes will last a little longer. I don't expect them to last 50 years like some of the vintage tubes I have, but at least a few years and not a few months or weeks!



+1


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Post subject: Re: 12AX7/7025 Tubes
Posted: Mon Apr 28, 2014 4:39 am
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Frankly, there is a bit of romanticizing about the "better" older tubes, NOS or not. TV repairmen did quite well replacing tubes back in the day. There was a reason for having tube testers in every corner store, and it wasn't because the tubes lasted for a long time. :wink:

I see no reason that new production tubes can't last for decades. Many of the new production tubes are made by the same companies that have been producing them for a very, very long time. In fact, Russia had a vested interest in good quality mil-spec tubes long after the US quit making them.

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Post subject: Re: 12AX7/7025 Tubes
Posted: Mon Apr 28, 2014 6:56 am
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T2Stratman wrote:
Cedar....Now that is a tube and tone report! So if I am reading this all correctly, the Gold Lions and Telefunkins are some of the best new affordable preamp tubes out there.

Thanks for this valuable information.

T2


The Gold Lion and Psvane are the new production tubes I tried. The Telefunken tubes are original tubes from the 60s.

Up to this point the Mullard RI have been my favorite new production. I've tried the usual, EHX, JJ, Tung-Sol, , Sovtek, GT... none of them were anything special IMO. So it was either NOS or the Mullard RI. But I got tired of not being able to find decent or real NOS tubes so I just stuck with the Mullards, but they're just not that reliable and can get too microphonic, and there's no guarantee you'll get a good tube, even new.

My search was to find clean and bright 12AX7 tubes for my old amps, both GL and Psvane are not exactly what I'm looking for, but I'm glad I got to try them and I will continue using them based on the tone I'm looking for that day :) the 5751 is the only tube that got me close, so I'll need to try a couple more to find the "one".

For me, spending $40-50 a tube that's guaranteed to sound good, that isn't microphonic, and very quiet is well worth it. It sure beats spending $50+ or even $100+ on a NOS tube and not getting what you hoped for... I just hope these new tubes will last a little longer. I don't expect them to last 50 years like some of the vintage tubes I have, but at least a few years and not a few months or weeks![/quote]

Gotcha. I must have missed the Telefunkins being NOS, but the GL, PSVanes, and even Mullards are all good quality (for the most part) and the best of the newly manufactured tubes. I have been looking for newer tubes as my stash is getting low after the Bassman, Princeton, and Bantam recent servicing. I need to find some reliable, good sounding tubes for my Super.

Thanks again, nothing like having more options!

T2

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