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Post subject: Re: 12AX7/7025 Tubes
Posted: Mon Apr 07, 2014 11:52 am
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BMW2002Ti wrote:
Cedar, try the RI Tungsol 12AX7. Get it from a supplier that tests the tubes for low noise and strength. For the price, this tube has the cleanest high end of any of the similarly priced modern 12AX7. If this tube is still too "smooth" or mellow in your amp, I'd start looking at electrolytic bypass caps and main filter caps feeding these 12AX7 tubes.

The volume drops most likely because those NOS tubes are not truly NOS. Or even close to ANOS. If you take a truly new, high testing TFK or Raytheon (these normally test off the scale, when brand new) and plug it into a critical stage, you are not going to get a too-mellow tone. There are very few truly NOS, "A-one" TFK ECC83 or Raytheon 12AX7A out there anymore.

If you can spring for the Gold Lion B759/ECC83, you may want to try one. The tone is BIG and clear. Very good bass. A good step above the Mullard or TS reissues. No other modern 12AX7 has it's tone. They are black plates, so should give good consistent tone and long life.

One other thing, what kinda strings do you use. Not to get you angry... when was the last time you changed them? Just asking.

Good luck! :D


I have tried the TS 12AX7 couple years ago and did not like 'em at all, same with JJ... you did mention that there's new TS (Russian) available, I could try it again.

The problem is everyone claims that they test tubes, new and NOS. I've tried different vendors and it's never a guarantee that you'll get a great tube. That's why I was asking about NOS (or ANOS) tubes, the ones I got didn't deliver. Neither did the original tubes that came with some of my amps. So I started wondering if the low output and warmer tone is due to age and not being a true NOS. So, since finding a true NOS is next to impossible I'd have to look at new production tubes. I've been a huge fan of the Mullard RI, but the reliability and microphonics is a concern.

I'm willing to try the Gold Lion or whatever else is out there. That's why I got excited when I tried the Ruby tubes that came in my PR, but those are 10 years old and not the same as what's available today :(

I did email Doug (Doug's tubes) about the Ruby tubes and here's his response:

"The Russian tube is a Sovtek 12AX7WA, the other one is a 90's chinese 12AX7 with the square foil getter."

This looks more like that 7025STR

http://www.dougstubes.com/preamp-tubes/12ax7-ecc83-7025/nos-chinese-12ax7-80-s-90-s.html

Same silver plates, triple mica and square getter. I guess they're out of production too.

Image

Oh, and yes I do change strings often :) the same guitar with the same strings will sound "brighter" and louder in a different amp or with the right preamp tubes.

BMW2002Ti wrote:
One other tube you may want to look for is the mil spec Sylvania 12AX7WA. Good black plates are getting hard to find ( esp square getter ring variety).

But, the gray plate Sylvania 12AX7WA (halo getter ring) also has a nice neutral, clean tone.

http://i.ebayimg.com/00/s/MTE2MlgxNjAw/ ... 8/$_57.JPG

Just an FWIW...

:mrgreen:


Thanks Bimmer! I'll check those out too. I went ahead and grabbed some 60s NOS Sylvania 12AX7 (long grey plates with halo getters) last night, just to try 'em, not the same as the one you recommended, but who knows, I might like 'em...


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Post subject: Re: 12AX7/7025 Tubes
Posted: Mon Apr 07, 2014 12:50 pm
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cedarblues wrote:
We're talking about 40+ year old amps here :) so I'm sure some caps might need replacing, but I'd hate to change anything in these precious amps, as long as they're working fine...


That can be a bit of a misconception.

Just because the light comes on, the tubes glow and sound comes out doesn't mean that it's 'working fine'... What many people perceive as that 'Vintage Sound' is just a tired, old Amp.

Most of the components found in a vintage amp are subject to progressive failure, that is, long before they fail altogether, they are not working up to spec and the sound is affected.

There is virtually no 40 y.o. electrolytic capacitor which meets spec or isn't leaking current. The same applies to CC resistors.

Originality is great so far as it goes, but not to the point where the original tone is lost to aged components.

There are plenty of NOS parts out there which will restore the amp's voice w/o sacrificing too much of it's originality.

If you sell a 'working' vintage amp (as opposed to a 100-point collector), the Buyer is most likely going to be driven more by how it sounds (or how it doesn't), than by how many original components are in the circuit chain.

If you're not happy with the sound, it's time to get out the DMM to determine which of these old components aren't living up to their design specs.

NOS CC resistors are out there, but it may take buying 3 to get one w/i spec. Modern electrolytics come extremely close to the originals in both spec and response.

cheers!

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Post subject: Re: 12AX7/7025 Tubes
Posted: Mon Apr 07, 2014 1:49 pm
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As soon as I buy a vintage amp it goes to my tech. Any caps that need replacing he takes care of it. So all the amps have fresh filter caps, bypass caps, death cap removed, and properly grounded.

I'll say it again, there's nothing wrong with any of my amps, they're excellent sounding amps and work just fine. I'm just trying to tweak that last 2-3% to my liking... today it happens to be a nice clear and bright amp, tomorrow it could be back to a warm sounding and overdriven amp :)

This is just what I've experienced using different preamp tubes, and I'm trying to understand why some work and some don't, and what tubes I should try next and which ones to avoid. That's it.

Here's a sample of one of my "warm" sounding amp, a '74 DR dimed with treble on 10 and bass on 0, playing a Gibson 345.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w0-N_X7l--U

There's nothing wrong with it, I know, but my ears want to hear a little more clarity and brightness when I'm playing a Strat through it. In this video it has Mullard RI in both V1 and V2 and I'm playing through both channels at the same time. If any of my "NOS" tubes were in V1 and V2 it will sound a little warmer and less volume, and it kinda loses that bite it has.


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Post subject: Re: 12AX7/7025 Tubes
Posted: Mon Apr 07, 2014 4:40 pm
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Cedar...I put these into my '64 Princeton trying to keep it quiet but get a bit more gain out of it for a bit more sizzle and it worked. Nice sizzle, dead quiet, and more grit than before I put these in. They are a bit pricey but they sound like they might be right up your alley. Check em out.

http://tctubes.com/Sylvania-12AX7WA-lon ... lates.aspx

HTH

T2

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Post subject: Re: 12AX7/7025 Tubes
Posted: Mon Apr 07, 2014 6:15 pm
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Dig this. Now I know that these are still JJ in TFK clothing. Logo looks cool.

http://www.telefunken-elektroakustik.co ... cts/tubes/


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Post subject: Re: 12AX7/7025 Tubes
Posted: Mon Apr 07, 2014 6:36 pm
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BMW2002Ti wrote:
Dig this. Now I know that these are still JJ in TFK clothing. Logo looks cool.

http://www.telefunken-elektroakustik.co ... cts/tubes/



Its really hard nowadays to know which tube is made by who and what to expect once they are in the amp.

These from your link look the same as my original 1966 TFK's .. and now you are saying JJ makes them :cry:

How to know .. ..?!? :?:


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Post subject: Re: 12AX7/7025 Tubes
Posted: Mon Apr 07, 2014 7:54 pm
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T2Stratman wrote:
Cedar...I put these into my '64 Princeton trying to keep it quiet but get a bit more gain out of it for a bit more sizzle and it worked. Nice sizzle, dead quiet, and more grit than before I put these in. They are a bit pricey but they sound like they might be right up your alley. Check em out.

http://tctubes.com/Sylvania-12AX7WA-lon ... lates.aspx

HTH

T2


Glad they worked out in your Princeton, I'll definitely be checking them out. This is the same tube that Bimmer also recommended... so what would be the difference between the Sylvania 12AX7 and 12AX7WA? Since it's mil spec is it going to be quieter?


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Post subject: Re: 12AX7/7025 Tubes
Posted: Mon Apr 07, 2014 8:06 pm
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BMW2002Ti wrote:
Dig this. Now I know that these are still JJ in TFK clothing. Logo looks cool.

http://www.telefunken-elektroakustik.co ... cts/tubes/


Say what??? Is this new? Have you tried any yet?

Here's some pics of some of the tubes I tested in my amps, including some Telefunken...

Image

Out of all the RCAs I've tried I only use one. There were two until one of them died on me :( they were both 12AX7A, it's the one in the middle in the pics below

Image

Image

It sounds good in V2 but when this tube is in V4 in my SR it changes everything! Why, I have no idea! I know that V4 is also the second gain stage, and in my SR it's very sensitive. Combining the smooth plate Telefunken in V2 with this RCA in V4 works well in that amp. But would still like it to be a little brighter :)

I'll report back once I try the Gold Lion tubes and the Sylvanias.


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Post subject: Re: 12AX7/7025 Tubes
Posted: Mon Apr 07, 2014 10:49 pm
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Nikola Tesla wrote:
BMW2002Ti wrote:
Dig this. Now I know that these are still JJ in TFK clothing. Logo looks cool.

http://www.telefunken-elektroakustik.co ... cts/tubes/



Its really hard nowadays to know which tube is made by who and what to expect once they are in the amp.

These from your link look the same as my original 1966 TFK's .. and now you are saying JJ makes them :cry:

How to know .. ..?!? :?:


The company that owns JJ bought the right to use the Telefunken name in certain products. Something like what New Sensor did with the "Tungsol" and "Mullard" name. These TFK labeled tubes are modern made tubes, not re-labels of the original Ulm or Berlin made Telefunken tubes of the 1930-1970's.

I don't believe these new "TFK" labeled tubes have the classic "diamond" molded into the bottom of the tube, like real TFK tubes.

The new ECC83-TK are frame-grid tubes. The short anode plates are in a supported box shape. Similar to the famous TFK ECC803S ( one of the best 12AX7 ever made and next to impossible to find a good new one). Or the Tesla E83CC. They are not duplicates of the original long-plates (either smooth or ribbed).



New "TFK" labeled JJ made ECC83-TK:

http://www.telefunken-elektroakustik.co ... C83-TK.jpg


Original German made TFK ECC803S:

https://www.tubeworld.com/803sp10.jpg


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Post subject: Re: 12AX7/7025 Tubes
Posted: Mon Apr 07, 2014 11:04 pm
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Original German Made Telefunken "diamond" molded into base:



Image


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Post subject: Re: 12AX7/7025 Tubes
Posted: Tue Apr 08, 2014 3:51 pm
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cedarblues wrote:
T2Stratman wrote:
Cedar...I put these into my '64 Princeton trying to keep it quiet but get a bit more gain out of it for a bit more sizzle and it worked. Nice sizzle, dead quiet, and more grit than before I put these in. They are a bit pricey but they sound like they might be right up your alley. Check em out.

http://tctubes.com/Sylvania-12AX7WA-lon ... lates.aspx

HTH

T2


Glad they worked out in your Princeton, I'll definitely be checking them out. This is the same tube that Bimmer also recommended... so what would be the difference between the Sylvania 12AX7 and 12AX7WA? Since it's mil spec is it going to be quieter?


Quieter? I would say so, they are dead quiet in the Princeton, and normally Mil Spec is a higher quality, quieter, and tougher than regular production. Didn't realize Beemer recommended the same tube...he is "THE TUBEMIESTER"!
:mrgreen:
T2

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Post subject: Re: 12AX7/7025 Tubes
Posted: Wed Apr 09, 2014 7:01 am
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Yes he is! Always a huge help when it comes to tubes!

Quiet is good, but it has to sound good too :mrgreen: I don't mind a little noise and I actually like a tube that's on the edge of being microphonic, as long as the feedback is under control... I feel the same way about pickups, I like unpotted pickups that are a bit microphonic, it just sounds so raw and rich. Potted pickups tend to sound like they have a blanket over 'em!


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Post subject: Re: 12AX7/7025 Tubes
Posted: Wed Apr 09, 2014 8:38 am
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Probably a real stupid question but, I ran across some tubes from the UK and I'm wondering if they are ok to run in my US made amp?

240V/50Hz vs. 120V/60Hz


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Post subject: Re: 12AX7/7025 Tubes
Posted: Wed Apr 09, 2014 10:02 am
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UK tubes are fine to use, assuming they are the correct type of tube for the specific application.

Arjay

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Post subject: Re: 12AX7/7025 Tubes
Posted: Wed Apr 09, 2014 10:14 am
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swerve wrote:
Probably a real stupid question but, I ran across some tubes from the UK and I'm wondering if they are ok to run in my US made amp?

240V/50Hz vs. 120V/60Hz


As Arjay stated, no problem. Once you plug the amp into the wall with the proper PT for the wall voltage and Hz. Plus, the amp's power supply are working ok... all components within the amp are under the amp's circuit conditions. Therefore, all values posted on the schematic are the same.


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