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Post subject: '67 Bandmaster w/ 6v6's?
Posted: Sun Mar 09, 2014 7:04 pm
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Has anyone tried using the JJ 6V6's in a Bandmaster? I was thinking about doing this but would like to get some feedback before I try. I'm thinking the JJ's could handle the plate voltage, just a matter of biasing them correctly. Am I missing anything?

Thanks in advance.

By the way, this video is what got me interested. Fast forward to 35 second mark for sound sample.
http://youtu.be/0T4BARJSf1I

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Post subject: Re: '67 Bandmaster w/ 6v6's?
Posted: Sun Mar 09, 2014 7:18 pm
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socal323 wrote:
...I'm thinking the JJ's could handle the plate voltage, just a matter of biasing them correctly. Am I missing anything?...


Correct. The only thing that you are missing is trying it for yourself. The JJs aren't quite like a 6V6, with sound much closer to a 6L6, but definitely something different. You only stand to lose about $30, so why not?

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Post subject: Re: '67 Bandmaster w/ 6v6's?
Posted: Sun Mar 09, 2014 7:40 pm
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shimmilou wrote:
socal323 wrote:
...I'm thinking the JJ's could handle the plate voltage, just a matter of biasing them correctly. Am I missing anything?...


Correct. The only thing that you are missing is trying it for yourself. The JJs aren't quite like a 6V6, with sound much closer to a 6L6, but definitely something different. You only stand to lose about $30, so why not?


What I'm really trying to achieve is earlier breakup without having to go over 6 on the volume knob. I've already removed v1 but that wasn't much of an improvement and also replaced v2 with a 5751. I think I'll give it a try and report back. If this works, I'll probably do it to my '74 BMR as well.... Thanks!!

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Post subject: Re: '67 Bandmaster w/ 6v6's?
Posted: Sun Mar 09, 2014 7:52 pm
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One more question, I've read that Electro Harmonix 6v6's are also capable of handling higher voltages. Are these basically the same tubes as the jj's just branded as Electro Harmonix?
Thanks.

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Post subject: Re: '67 Bandmaster w/ 6v6's?
Posted: Sun Mar 09, 2014 8:24 pm
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socal323 wrote:
What I'm really trying to achieve is earlier breakup without having to go over 6 on the volume knob. I've already removed v1 but that wasn't much of an improvement and also replaced v2 with a 5751. I think I'll give it a try and report back. If this works, I'll probably do it to my '74 BMR as well.... Thanks!!


First off, re-install V1 -- that's the channel you should be using. The available pre-amp gain is less in the vibrato channel due to the insertion loss caused by the tremolo circuit. You want to drive the channel hard for maximum saturation so use a high-gain 7025/12AX7A with a good S/N ratio to minimize noise at idle. The JJ 6V6's when pushed should compress easily and deliver a nice creamy OD while limiting the overall output to roughly 28 watts. Whether that's still too loud for live stage use may be determined by the efficiency and configuration of your speaker system. An 8-ohm load may be helpful there in capping the volume.

Arjay

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Post subject: Re: '67 Bandmaster w/ 6v6's?
Posted: Sun Mar 09, 2014 9:25 pm
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socal323 wrote:
One more question, I've read that Electro Harmonix 6v6's are also capable of handling higher voltages. Are these basically the same tubes as the jj's just branded as Electro Harmonix?
Thanks.


For the record, I tried both the JJ 6V6S and E-H 6V6GT tubes in my Blues Deluxe Reissue.

I was not impressed.

Bass response compared to a good 6L6GC was very poor with a raspy tone. Overall breakup was not that great either. My conclusion was 6V6 tubes belong in 6V6 designed amps and 6L6GC tubes belong in amps designed for 6L6GCs. YMMV

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Post subject: Re: '67 Bandmaster w/ 6v6's?
Posted: Sun Mar 09, 2014 10:35 pm
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bluesky636 wrote:
My conclusion was 6V6 tubes belong in 6V6 designed amps and 6L6GC tubes belong in amps designed for 6L6GCs. YMMV


I concur. But so long as a 6V6GTA can comfortably handle the Bandmaster's 440 VDC plate voltage, such a tube swap is theoretically possible with no damage likely to either amp or tube(s).

I think the best course of action is obvious......swap the Bandmaster for a Deluxe Reverb.

Arjay

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Post subject: Re: '67 Bandmaster w/ 6v6's?
Posted: Sun Mar 09, 2014 10:58 pm
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A 5751 will not get you earlier breakup at a lower volume, it's quite the opposite actually, it will get you later breakup. The EH and JJ are totally different brands made in different factories, and sound quite different, the EH has more of the typical 6V6 sound.

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Post subject: Re: '67 Bandmaster w/ 6v6's?
Posted: Sun Mar 09, 2014 11:14 pm
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shimmilou wrote:
A 5751 will not get you earlier breakup at a lower volume, it's quite the opposite actually, it will get you later breakup.


Correct.

The 5751's "mu" factor falls somewhere between a 12AT7 and a 12AY7. Significantly less "juice" with which to drive the phase inverter.

Arjay

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Post subject: Re: '67 Bandmaster w/ 6v6's?
Posted: Sun Mar 09, 2014 11:15 pm
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Nearly all NOS 6V6GT and a few new 6V6GT's can handle 425-450VDC (or more, in some cases) on their anode plate. As long as you re-bias the amp, so that the idle watts of dissipation is no more than 11-12 watts per tube (for Class AB1, push-pull).

The one tube that I've personally had trouble with is the newly Russian made Tungsol 6V6GT. I've had issues with them red plating, even if the idle dissipation is below 9-watts. It seems that they are not as tolerant to momentary peaks in current flow or instabilites, esp when you are placing 425-450 VDC onto their plates. At least compared to the JJ 6V6S or TAD 6V6GT.

One thing that has worked with these TS 6V6GT tubes is to run the screen voltage a good 10VDC below the anode. For those amps that have a 470-ohm screen resistors as stock, replace them with a wire-wound, 1k-ohm 5-watt wire-wound resistor. "Sandbox" style is fine. The lower screen voltage helps insure the tube from thermal runaway. Also, a nice trick to use for those 6L6GC amps that eat output tubes.



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Post subject: Re: '67 Bandmaster w/ 6v6's?
Posted: Mon Mar 10, 2014 9:05 am
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Not sure what cab and/or speakers you're using it with, but with my bandmaster (in a 2x12 combo cab), I have the Warehouse Speakers G12C/S, and they break up great at 5 with standard 6L6's. Put a Timmy in front with Gain and Volume at 12:00 and it's even more tonal nirvana.

You'll get a lot more mileage with your bandmaster with different speakers. I have the Warehouse G12C in a closed back Bandmaster Cab for use with my Showman head and they sound great as well.

Let us know what cab and what speakers you're currently using; IMHO this will get you there a lot faster than changing to 6V6.

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Post subject: Re: '67 Bandmaster w/ 6v6's?
Posted: Mon Mar 10, 2014 6:14 pm
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Thanks for all the quick replies, guys. I really appreciate your input. I'd like to respond to some of the postings below.

Retroverbial wrote:
First off, re-install V1 -- that's the channel you should be using. The available pre-amp gain is less in the vibrato channel due to the insertion loss caused by the tremolo circuit. You want to drive the channel hard for maximum saturation so use a high-gain 7025/12AX7A with a good S/N ratio to minimize noise at idle. The JJ 6V6's when pushed should compress easily and deliver a nice creamy OD while limiting the overall output to roughly 28 watts. Whether that's still too loud for live stage use may be determined by the efficiency and configuration of your speaker system. An 8-ohm load may be helpful there in capping the volume.

I think the best course of action is obvious......swap the Bandmaster for a Deluxe Reverb.
Arjay


I'll give that a shot, I think i've got a few 7025's laying around. As for the swapping, I actually did consider that, lol. I'm just thinking that not many people would be willing to trade a nice vintage deluxe reverb for a nice vintage bandmaster. Seeing how everyone nowadays is converting to 18 to 22 watt amps.

Thanks Arjay

bluesky636 wrote:
For the record, I tried both the JJ 6V6S and E-H 6V6GT tubes in my Blues Deluxe Reissue.

I was not impressed.

Bass response compared to a good 6L6GC was very poor with a raspy tone. Overall breakup was not that great either. My conclusion was 6V6 tubes belong in 6V6 designed amps and 6L6GC tubes belong in amps designed for 6L6GCs. YMMV


Would using a 212 cab give better bass response? Just thinking out loud here..
Thanks Bluesky

shimmilou wrote:
The EH and JJ are totally different brands made in different factories, and sound quite different, the EH has more of the typical 6V6 sound.


I think I would like that, I really love the way a deluxe reverb breaks up at around 4.5 to 6.
BMW2002Ti wrote:
Nearly all NOS 6V6GT and a few new 6V6GT's can handle 425-450VDC (or more, in some cases) on their anode plate. As long as you re-bias the amp, so that the idle watts of dissipation is no more than 11-12 watts per tube (for Class AB1, push-pull).

The one tube that I've personally had trouble with is the newly Russian made Tungsol 6V6GT. I've had issues with them red plating, even if the idle dissipation is below 9-watts. It seems that they are not as tolerant to momentary peaks in current flow or instabilites, esp when you are placing 425-450 VDC onto their plates. At least compared to the JJ 6V6S or TAD 6V6GT.

One thing that has worked with these TS 6V6GT tubes is to run the screen voltage a good 10VDC below the anode. For those amps that have a 470-ohm screen resistors as stock, replace them with a wire-wound, 1k-ohm 5-watt wire-wound resistor. "Sandbox" style is fine. The lower screen voltage helps insure the tube from thermal runaway. Also, a nice trick to use for those 6L6GC amps that eat output tubes.



This is all great information, I'll keep all this in the back of my mind as I ponder all these ideas.
Thanks for your contribution BMW2002Ti

nedorama wrote:
Not sure what cab and/or speakers you're using it with, but with my bandmaster (in a 2x12 combo cab), I have the Warehouse Speakers G12C/S, and they break up great at 5 with standard 6L6's. Put a Timmy in front with Gain and Volume at 12:00 and it's even more tonal nirvana.

You'll get a lot more mileage with your bandmaster with different speakers. I have the Warehouse G12C in a closed back Bandmaster Cab for use with my Showman head and they sound great as well.

Let us know what cab and what speakers you're currently using; IMHO this will get you there a lot faster than changing to 6V6.


I have 2 212 cabs. One is the Fender oversized cab that came with my BMR and is loaded with a Celestion V30 and a Vintage Oxford reconed by Orange county speakers. This one is a 4 ohm load. The second cab is loaded with a V30 and a Greenback, It's the Bogner Alchemist cab and this one is a 8 ohm load.

I have the Fulltone OCD that I use for overdrive/distortion and a plimsoul that I was using for mild overdrive. I pulled the plimsoul off my board with the intention of trying to flip it for something along the line of a Timmy. So much to do, so little time..... :lol:
Thanks for the tips Ned.

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Post subject: Re: '67 Bandmaster w/ 6v6's?
Posted: Mon Mar 10, 2014 6:47 pm
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socal323 wrote:
bluesky636 wrote:
For the record, I tried both the JJ 6V6S and E-H 6V6GT tubes in my Blues Deluxe Reissue.

I was not impressed.

Bass response compared to a good 6L6GC was very poor with a raspy tone. Overall breakup was not that great either. My conclusion was 6V6 tubes belong in 6V6 designed amps and 6L6GC tubes belong in amps designed for 6L6GCs. YMMV


Would using a 212 cab give better bass response? Just thinking out loud here..
Thanks Bluesky


Maybe. But a 6V6 does not have the bass response that a 6L6GC does.

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Post subject: Re: '67 Bandmaster w/ 6v6's?
Posted: Mon Mar 10, 2014 10:41 pm
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bluesky636 wrote:
Maybe. But a 6V6 does not have the bass response that a 6L6GC does.


This is true. But the amp can be "tricked" into thinking it has more by using a carefully selected speaker. It's why my Spankmaster Reverb's with their 15-inch JBL speakers sound as throaty as they do.

Arjay

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Post subject: Re: '67 Bandmaster w/ 6v6's?
Posted: Tue Mar 11, 2014 8:39 am
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so is your amp a 67 Bandmaster or a 68 Bandmaster Reverb? the note about the cab that came with your BMR has me thinking you have a slightly different amp, but Arjay and the others can speak to the tonal differences (if any) between the two (reverb off of course)

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