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Post subject: Is there a concensus on a definitive source??
Posted: Fri Jan 10, 2014 4:04 am
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Been scouring the Web to learn all that I can about my new (to me) Blackface Deluxe (AB763) in preparation for tuning it up next week (pulling the chassis for the 1st time). I'll be sure to post some photos when I do.

Got a nice refurbished, reconed, vintage 1967 Fender JENSEN C12N (220705) to replace the orig. Oxford 12K5 (to be mothballed). (Thanks Arjay, T2S)

Have collected a decent bunch of NOS/NIB Tubes - '60s Mullard (UK) GZ34, 2 Matched (5% ma/tc) pairs of '60s Pope (Phillips Holland) and '70s JAN (Phillips USA) 6V6GTs, '70s JAN (Phillips USA) 12AT7WC and matched (5%) trio of '60s (GE USA) 12AX7/7025. All the existing tubes are new EH, Sovteks or unmarked Chicom crap. Also found a like-new Weber Bias Rite BR-2 (octal) in the local CL for $60. Though I won't likely be eating Meat for awhile, I'm thinking the $$ were well spent.

But, there's a lot of misinformation out there re. which tubes can be susbstitute and which cannot... what caps to use and which to avoid - Sprague, F&T, Illinois, Nichion, etc.

Where is your go-to source for reliable information ?

Also, what's your fav vendor for Filter/Signal Caps, resistors, etc. ?

Any other Pearls of Wisdom you'd like to share so I can be sure everything's in proper working order ?

TIA !!

cheers!

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'11 FSR Am. Vtg. Ltd. Ed. CAR '57 Stratocaster (SN# LE02639)
'14 American Deluxe Ash Stratocaster
'12 Telebration Empress Telecaster
'99 Deluxe Nashville Telecaster
'12 FSR Telecaster HH
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Last edited by Lightnin MN on Fri Jan 10, 2014 8:36 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Post subject: Re: Is there a concensus on a definitive source??
Posted: Fri Jan 10, 2014 6:55 am
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You have some very fine bottles, there. Should keep the amp going well, for quite awhile. As for caps --- Nichicon are mostly radial caps (leads on same side). They make some very good ones. But, stick to tried-&-true axial caps for your amp's layout. F&T or Spragues.

For the PSU, I've been using F&T for the last few years. No problems. Type and make of resistor depends on the location and function. Try to use fire-proof on the sockets (screen resistors and grid stoppers). Good metal oxides or low-inductive wire-wound in the power supply and bias supply.

Coupling caps is a whole other story. Many opinions. You should ask about specific types & brands. And narrow down the tone you are after.

Good luck! You have a very nice amp! :D :mrgreen: :D


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Post subject: Re: Is there a concensus on a definitive source??
Posted: Fri Jan 10, 2014 10:51 am
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BMW2002Ti wrote:
You have some very fine bottles, there. Should keep the amp going well, for quite awhile. As for caps --- Nichicon are mostly radial caps (leads on same side). They make some very good ones. But, stick to tried-&-true axial caps for your amp's layout. F&T or Spragues.

For the PSU, I've been using F&T for the last few years. No problems. Type and make of resistor depends on the location and function. Try to use fire-proof on the sockets (screen resistors and grid stoppers). Good metal oxides or low-inductive wire-wound in the power supply and bias supply.

Coupling caps is a whole other story. Many opinions. You should ask about specific types & brands. And narrow down the tone you are after.


+1

Absent a definitive and positively-diagnosed problem with a coupling (ie: "tone") cap, I never change them out. If replacement does become necessary, take a look at the Zoso line of axials. They sound great and are styled to resemble the beloved Blue Molded vintage types.

Arjay

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"Here's why reliability is job one: A great sounding amp that breaks down goes from being a favorite piece of gear to a useless piece of crap in less time than it takes to read this sentence." -- BRUCE ZINKY


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Post subject: Re: Is there a concensus on a definitive source??
Posted: Fri Jan 10, 2014 5:05 pm
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Cool... !!

Thanks Guys !!

I'll keep you posted.

cheers!

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'11 FSR Am. Vtg. Ltd. Ed. CAR '57 Stratocaster (SN# LE02639)
'14 American Deluxe Ash Stratocaster
'12 Telebration Empress Telecaster
'99 Deluxe Nashville Telecaster
'12 FSR Telecaster HH
'10 Heritage H-535
'99 Martin DC-1E
'13 Lanikai Tenor Ukulele


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Post subject: Re: Is there a concensus on a definitive source??
Posted: Fri Jan 10, 2014 5:51 pm
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Have you installed that C12NA yet?

If so, how about a sitrep?

Arjay

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"Here's why reliability is job one: A great sounding amp that breaks down goes from being a favorite piece of gear to a useless piece of crap in less time than it takes to read this sentence." -- BRUCE ZINKY


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Post subject: Re: Is there a concensus on a definitive source??
Posted: Sat Jan 11, 2014 2:32 pm
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Retroverbial wrote:
Have you installed that C12NA yet?

If so, how about a sitrep?

Arjay


Not yet...

The Harness just came today and I'll solder it on and then wait until I get everything else straight before I install it.

The speaker came with a repro Fender Gold/Brown label, so I stuck it on.

I suspect the Bias is pretty off because I'm getting slight 'Tube Glow' on both the top & bottom of the Rectifier (5AR). Current PTs are new EH 6V6GTs.

cheers!

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'11 FSR Am. Vtg. Ltd. Ed. CAR '57 Stratocaster (SN# LE02639)
'14 American Deluxe Ash Stratocaster
'12 Telebration Empress Telecaster
'99 Deluxe Nashville Telecaster
'12 FSR Telecaster HH
'10 Heritage H-535
'99 Martin DC-1E
'13 Lanikai Tenor Ukulele


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Post subject: Re: Is there a concensus on a definitive source??
Posted: Sat Jan 11, 2014 2:41 pm
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Can you post a pic showing that rectifier "glow"?

Arjay

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"Here's why reliability is job one: A great sounding amp that breaks down goes from being a favorite piece of gear to a useless piece of crap in less time than it takes to read this sentence." -- BRUCE ZINKY


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Post subject: Re: Is there a concensus on a definitive source??
Posted: Sat Jan 11, 2014 4:41 pm
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Is there a concensus on a definitive source??

Back to the original question. Simple answer: No. There is no "definitive source" or "definitive component." If anyone says there is... be very suspicious. Prolly means that tech or amp owner only knows of, or uses, one brand of parts from one distributor.

Really, there are still a good selection of parts manufacturers and good sources for them. Keep them all in the digital "Rolodex." One of the nice things about the Net.


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Post subject: Re: Is there a concensus on a definitive source??
Posted: Tue Jan 14, 2014 9:57 am
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Retroverbial wrote:
Have you installed that C12NA yet?

If so, how about a sitrep?

Arjay



OK... soldered the harness to the speaker (attaching the + lead to the Red paint side) and played it stand-alone w/o attaching it to the baffle.

Not at all as thrilled as I'd hoped. :cry: :cry:

The sound is great, but the speaker hisses like a Rattlesnake in heat.

Realize that all amp speakers have some hiss due to inherent 'noise' in the circuitry, but this is twice as loud as the Oxford (which is barely detectable unless you're right next to it). The only control to affect it is the Treble which raises/lowers the hiss with amplitude.

Checked impedance at the solder joints and also at the plug end, measures 7.8Ω (verified on 2 separate DMMs).

Swapped-in all the new NOS vintage pre-amp Glass hoping the existing crap hodge-podge of Sovtek, EH and unlabled Chicom tubes might be the problem (though not affecting the Oxford). These tubes were all lower gain 12ax7 variants, not strictly what the schematic called for.

This glass swap really brought the amp alive - I never expected to hear such a dramatic improvement from the vintage stuff, but it did absolutely nothing to clean up the noise.

Haven't yet added the NOS matched power tubes because of the need to pull the chassis to bias them, while this could have an effect, it's not especially likely.

Will also look for degraded Caps, Resistors and check all solder joints on the board once the chassis is pulled to see if there's any improvement to be found here.

I realize that buying vintage gear is always a gamble, but chasing down another $200 (w/ S/H) vintage C12N (w/ no guarantee of correcting the issue) seems useless. Just don't want to keep throwing money at it.

If I can't correct it, I'll just stay w/ the Oxford (which is cleaner and sounds 95% as good to me) and dump the C12N back on ebay.

Anyone have any thoughts on the issue?

TIA

cheers!

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'11 FSR Am. Vtg. Ltd. Ed. CAR '57 Stratocaster (SN# LE02639)
'14 American Deluxe Ash Stratocaster
'12 Telebration Empress Telecaster
'99 Deluxe Nashville Telecaster
'12 FSR Telecaster HH
'10 Heritage H-535
'99 Martin DC-1E
'13 Lanikai Tenor Ukulele


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Post subject: Re: Is there a concensus on a definitive source??
Posted: Tue Jan 14, 2014 10:48 am
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Likely there's nothing at all wrong with the Jensen speaker -- merely a demonstration of its superior frequency response and efficiency at reproducing an incoming signal. The hiss is an amp issue.

Arjay

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"Here's why reliability is job one: A great sounding amp that breaks down goes from being a favorite piece of gear to a useless piece of crap in less time than it takes to read this sentence." -- BRUCE ZINKY


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Post subject: Re: Is there a concensus on a definitive source??
Posted: Tue Jan 14, 2014 10:56 am
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Retroverbial wrote:
Likely there's nothing at all wrong with the Jensen speaker -- merely a demonstration of its superior frequency response and efficiency at reproducing an incoming signal. The hiss is an amp issue.

Arjay



I suspected you would say that... that the Jensen is more sensitive...

OK... so where to go..??

If I can beat it, I'll play the Jensen.

If not, I'll stay w/ the Oxford as the hiss drives me crazy... in a sleep-deprivation sort of way... :lol:

I should mention that I am totally, 100%, OCD when it comes to Signal Noise in electronic gear. I once had an old B&O Beomaster that I practically rebuilt chasing a noise issue that only a few others could even hear.

The issue with noise here may fall into the 'acceptable' level for many people, but not me.

cheers!

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'11 FSR Am. Vtg. Ltd. Ed. CAR '57 Stratocaster (SN# LE02639)
'14 American Deluxe Ash Stratocaster
'12 Telebration Empress Telecaster
'99 Deluxe Nashville Telecaster
'12 FSR Telecaster HH
'10 Heritage H-535
'99 Martin DC-1E
'13 Lanikai Tenor Ukulele


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Post subject: Re: Is there a concensus on a definitive source??
Posted: Tue Jan 14, 2014 1:25 pm
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Lightning MN, does the DR have the original carbon comp resistors in the power rail (under the doghouse)? If so, my bet is if you replace those with good metal oxide or wire-wound resistors, the background noise will drop.


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Post subject: Re: Is there a concensus on a definitive source??
Posted: Tue Jan 14, 2014 3:00 pm
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BMW2002Ti wrote:
Lightning MN, does the DR have the original carbon comp resistors in the power rail (under the doghouse)? If so, my bet is if you replace those with good metal oxide or wire-wound resistors, the background noise will drop.


Not certain as I haven't been in there yet, but given the amp's history, it's a good bet they are.

Btw, it's a Deluxe, not a DR, not exactly identical (even excluding the Reverb), but they're pretty darn close.

IYO, which should I use the MO or the Wire-wounds?

Do you have a source?

cheers!

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'11 FSR Am. Vtg. Ltd. Ed. CAR '57 Stratocaster (SN# LE02639)
'14 American Deluxe Ash Stratocaster
'12 Telebration Empress Telecaster
'99 Deluxe Nashville Telecaster
'12 FSR Telecaster HH
'10 Heritage H-535
'99 Martin DC-1E
'13 Lanikai Tenor Ukulele


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Post subject: Re: Is there a concensus on a definitive source??
Posted: Tue Jan 14, 2014 3:12 pm
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Oops! Sorry about the mixup. Metal oxide resistors can be bought from a lot of sources. I got mine from Antique Electronics Supply.

http://www.tubesandmore.com/products/re ... al%20Oxide


I bought a bunch of Mill WW from Parts Connexion:

http://www.partsconnexion.com/resistors_mills_mra5.html


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Post subject: Re: Is there a concensus on a definitive source??
Posted: Tue Jan 14, 2014 3:34 pm
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Lightnin MN wrote:
Btw, it's a Deluxe, not a DR, not exactly identical (even excluding the Reverb), but they're pretty darn close.


Some minor value differences for the dropping resistors between the two amps. Filter cap values are identical. Curiously the non-verb Deluxe uses different plate voltages for the phase-inverter stage (170/180) whereas the DR is symmetric with 180 VDC for V6A and V6B. The bias supplies seem to share common components.

Arjay

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"Here's why reliability is job one: A great sounding amp that breaks down goes from being a favorite piece of gear to a useless piece of crap in less time than it takes to read this sentence." -- BRUCE ZINKY


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