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Post subject: Re: Another pair of rare low watt amps
Posted: Tue Sep 18, 2012 5:24 pm
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Aspiring Musician
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Brings us back to the definition of rare.

From what I know - total Fender's production numbers are not really known. It was a privately held company, we may never know. The modern Fender company basically admits this issue. If there IS a source out there that identifies production numbers, I'd appreciate knowing. :D

Ampwares says they made the small box Princeton in 1955 only. Vintage Guitar Magazine Price Guide say from 1955-1956. Production may have went into the early years of 1956. Again.... records are sketchy. The Price Guide lists the value of the small box and large box Princetons as the same. You would think it would demand more money. :?

145 in one month times how many months. 10 months and we have 1,400 units.

Not sure I would go out on a limb and call this rare. I found three for sale on the internet with a quick Google search. Calling this rare could be a matter of opinion.

Regardless..... its a sweet looking amp. The quality of your amps is astounding. :D


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Post subject: Re: Another pair of rare low watt amps
Posted: Tue Sep 18, 2012 5:48 pm
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The LA shop amp is ratty, s/n 35. Made in EF on the tube chart date code. Ans that amp has a 1951 speaker in it, not the original.

Find one with a s/n later than 145.

I have the s/n 145 with the EF on the tube chart,w/ EF stamps on the filter and tone caps & Jensen Speaker frame.

I have never seen a EG built 5E2, if you know of any please help me log the info.

And, the big box Tweed Princeton continued the s/n's from these small box Princetons. Look at some July of 55 -> on Princeton Big Box and see what the serials are.

I have one of the small box wide panel Princetons and they use a completely different serial number system. The wide panel Princeton is the same size as the small box Princeton, and they painted "Princeton" on the chassis on the wide panel small box.


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Post subject: Re: Another pair of rare low watt amps
Posted: Tue Sep 18, 2012 6:33 pm
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phansford wrote:
Brings us back to the definition of rare.

From what I know - total Fender's production numbers are not really known. It was a privately held company, we may never know. The modern Fender company basically admits this issue. If there IS a source out there that identifies production numbers, I'd appreciate knowing. :D

Ampwares says they made the small box Princeton in 1955 only. Vintage Guitar Magazine Price Guide say from 1955-1956. Production may have went into the early years of 1956. Again.... records are sketchy. The Price Guide lists the value of the small box and large box Princetons as the same. You would think it would demand more money. :?

145 in one month times how many months. 10 months and we have 1,400 units.

Not sure I would go out on a limb and call this rare. I found three for sale on the internet with a quick Google search. Calling this rare could be a matter of opinion.

Regardless..... its a sweet looking amp. The quality of your amps is astounding. :D


_________________________

Trusting info from these places is not always the best.
The Vintage Buyers Guide is way off writing the small box Narrow panel Princeton went into 1956 Production.

They made the small box Princetons for a month before they went to the larger box (narrow panel) and the 5F2 circuit.

Greg Gagliano is the closest in the info, I as well as many collectors helped him make the info take shape. It needs an updating. I have a database of very accurate build date details as well as a few other collectors I know and may have a good book on the way.

When Leo made this small box narrow Princeton he was doing a Promotion to sell the amps to the wealthy Ivy league students, and he wanted them small and portable to use at lower volume levels suitable for a dorm room. Leo was smart to use the name's Princeton and Harvard because he was targeting the students that had the money to buy a Tele and a Princeton to play at school. When Elvis started to rule the airwaves the electric guitar and amps were the cats meow.

IMO, if you want accurate info about amp production, you will learn more in the Forums than the sources you listed.

Even the fender Schematics are wrong out there from the actual way fender built the amps. Like the Fender Bassman 5F6-A and 5F8-A Twin, the PDF schematics are not even correct.


Last edited by paper on Tue Sep 18, 2012 7:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post subject: Re: Another pair of rare low watt amps
Posted: Tue Sep 18, 2012 7:09 pm
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paper wrote:
IMO, if you want accurate info about amp production, you will learn more in the Forums than the sources you listed.


Collectors like you help make that a reality and I for one am grateful for the info.

Rawk on!

8)

Arjay

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"Here's why reliability is job one: A great sounding amp that breaks down goes from being a favorite piece of gear to a useless piece of crap in less time than it takes to read this sentence." -- BRUCE ZINKY


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Post subject: Re: Another pair of rare low watt amps
Posted: Tue Sep 18, 2012 10:18 pm
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Another ting I noticed was Fender used a regular Champ Cab on the small box Princeton, you can see the marks on the edge of the cab from the 4" long 1/4" wooden dowels he added for extra strength. I marked them so you can see.

Image


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Post subject: Re: Another pair of rare low watt amps
Posted: Wed Sep 19, 2012 1:26 pm
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Aspiring Musician
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paper wrote:
I have never seen a EG built 5E2, if you know of any please help me log the info.


Here's an EJ
Serial Number P 00350

So there's at least 350 ? And at least 5 months production..... getting less rare by the minute. :?

I've been in the collecting game for many years. Well over 35 years. I've become very wary of people claiming things are rare. Those claims are typically made by people who have a vested interest in making the claim. Same with dealers/auction houses that claim they sold an item for astronomical prices. Its typically a means to inflate the market.

Whether you agree or not.... Vintage Guitar Magazine's Price Guide showing the value of the small box being the same as the large box tells a lot. These price guides are based on polling of major dealers and collectors of realized pricing. Even if its rare, the market currently doesn't indicate it by demand or desire. I think you can learn a lot by reading a book, much more so than reading the forums. I still have a lot of reading to do. :wink:

Your referenced serial number database states that its does not reflect production runs. And it doesn't even include the 5E2 Princeton, which is worrisome. Not that the amps don't exist or the information isn't out there. Obviously they do and the information is available. I think Ampwares (formerly the Fender Field Guide) information is much more detailed then your expert friend's website.


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Post subject: Re: Another pair of rare low watt amps
Posted: Wed Sep 19, 2012 1:55 pm
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The tweed covering on those look pretty new to my eyes. Those things are mint condition. Would it not have a tube sticker inside with possible date and model info?


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Post subject: Re: Another pair of rare low watt amps
Posted: Wed Sep 19, 2012 3:30 pm
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phansford wrote:
paper wrote:
I have never seen a EG built 5E2, if you know of any please help me log the info.


Here's an EJ
Serial Number P 00350

So there's at least 350 ? And at least 5 months production..... getting less rare by the minute. :?

I've been in the collecting game for many years. Well over 35 years. I've become very wary of people claiming things are rare. Those claims are typically made by people who have a vested interest in making the claim. Same with dealers/auction houses that claim they sold an item for astronomical prices. Its typically a means to inflate the market.

Whether you agree or not.... Vintage Guitar Magazine's Price Guide showing the value of the small box being the same as the large box tells a lot. These price guides are based on polling of major dealers and collectors of realized pricing. Even if its rare, the market currently doesn't indicate it by demand or desire. I think you can learn a lot by reading a book, much more so than reading the forums. I still have a lot of reading to do. :wink:

Your referenced serial number database states that its does not reflect production runs. And it doesn't even include the 5E2 Princeton, which is worrisome. Not that the amps don't exist or the information isn't out there. Obviously they do and the information is available. I think Ampwares (formerly the Fender Field Guide) information is much more detailed then your expert friend's website.


Woah,

Your really upset over amp.

Chill a bit. Seriously.

Even at 350 amps, the small box princeton is a rare amp.
You found this one in a European website, thanks for researching this for me because I had no idea there was 350 made. I have only seen the EF builds. The serial numbers continued from the small box 5E2 to the big box 5F2. So if you could research the first 5F2 build dates you would be the person to claim the research.

And Greg Gagliano is well respected and has put a lot of time in his amp research, his serials are a free guide for most collectors.

The Vintage Guide is so far off is so many areas, it's just a guide.

My 1966 Twin Reverb JBL D131F amp is such a rare amp, I was offered 30,000.00 from one friend for that amp. We don't go by book value on the good rare amps. Do you think Billy Gibbons ask's what the book value of something is when he wants to buy it? That's the income from one song at one gig for a pro musician.

As I always say, Condition is everything.

I have not said who I am, but I am a successful professional.

As you can see by my low post's in the Forum I don't spend much time online. But I do enjoy mixing with other musicians and talking about gear when I'm not touring.

Arjay, Bmer and a few other old time musicians I have met here have the chill vibe goin on.

Image


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Post subject: Re: Another pair of rare low watt amps
Posted: Wed Sep 19, 2012 4:09 pm
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Aspiring Musician
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No.... not angry ..... I find this all interesting.

The discussion is the definition of rare.

I have no interest in claiming anything.... feel free to forward the EJ build to your friend. And I've read those articles before. Its a worthy cause.

You seem to have trouble accepting a differing opinion and your defense is name-dropping. That tells me all I need to know.

Thanks for the reply.


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Post subject: Re: Another pair of rare low watt amps
Posted: Thu Nov 22, 2012 8:20 am
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Late to the party here...

First, my dating tables are a guide (the articles state this clearly) and they remain a work in progress. Second, my articles are not meant to be comprehensive in terms of "all things" pertaining Fender amps. A book is the way to go for that.

Finally, the 5E2 Princeton is missing from the dating tables because I don't have definitive information regarding when their production ended. Fender used up older tube charts (5E2) on newer models (5F2) so going by tube chart alone isn't reliable (and I haven't personally seen most of the amps in my database first hand). There are data gaps for other models as well.

Hope this helps,

GG


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Post subject: Re: Another pair of rare low watt amps
Posted: Thu Nov 22, 2012 6:47 pm
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GG, not sure if you are talking about the tweed Princeton in photo or not. See the faint "EF" stamped between the Serial and model number?

That would make it E = 1955

and F = June.

Serial number data:

P0001 to P00350 - 1955


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Post subject: Re: Another pair of rare low watt amps
Posted: Thu Nov 22, 2012 7:24 pm
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I'm suprised no one has posted the 5E2 schematic, so I guess I will:

http://ampwares.com/schematics/princeton_5e2.pdf

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Post subject: Re: Another pair of rare low watt amps
Posted: Thu Nov 22, 2012 8:13 pm
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Bluesky, kinda like a Champ wide panel 5D1 (choke in PS, I believe) with a 10-inch speaker. You can tell that the Princeton's heritage is based on the tone out of the single-ended Champs. And not a "little brother" to the Deluxe (always push-pull). Seems the Deluxe's tone heritage is from the original Model 26.

Note the location of the "tone control" in the Model 26. Makes for the oddest tonal changes (via output stage impedance/time-constant changes). I can see & hear why Fender abandonned it. I set mine to the middle and use the guitar's tone knob.

Hope you had a good Thanksgiving.


http://ampwares.com/amplifiers/fender-w ... eed-champ/


Model 26 schemo:

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Post subject: Re: Another pair of rare low watt amps
Posted: Thu Nov 22, 2012 9:41 pm
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No, the 5E2 is exactly a 5E1 with an added tone control:

http://ampwares.com/schematics/champ_5e1.pdf

http://ampwares.com/schematics/princeton_5e2.pdf

Looks like the 5A3 was the first Deluxe to put the tone control in a more "normal" position in the circuit:

http://ampwares.com/schematics/deluxe_5a3.pdf

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Post subject: Re: Another pair of rare low watt amps
Posted: Thu Nov 22, 2012 11:23 pm
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Thanks, Bluesky!

You know that "super" interactive tone control, in the Model 26, really gives the amp more than a rolled-off tone. Changes the "bite" and OD. Kinda cool "pedal-effect" you won't hear in any pedal. :lol:

Notice the second feed point for the phase inverter in that 6N7? Proof that coupling cap-resistor network can change the phase of the sections. :D


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