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Post subject: Re: Need some help identifying odd speakers in a 65 Super Re
Posted: Thu Sep 27, 2012 7:02 pm
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vintageguitarz wrote:
I've played a number of times through a mint BF Vibrolux in the studio and I don't hear any major difference to mine, except I swear my SF is a bit more "clean" and stone quiet.


Likely quieter due to newer components which have less "temporal seasoning" than those of a blackface. It's cleaner (and slightly louder) due to increased plate voltage on the output tubes -- 450VDC vs 410VDC. In fact, your amp is rated for 40 watts whereas the original AA864 revision pumped about 35 watts to the speakers.

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Post subject: Re: Need some help identifying odd speakers in a 65 Super Re
Posted: Fri Sep 28, 2012 3:51 am
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Arjay, I remember learning in Physics, this crazy thing called "shot noise." Basically, if the electroncs going from the cathode to the anode slow down, en route, they are more likely to randomly & unintentionally hit parts of the tubes, generating noise.

One of the basic reasons to use a healthy anode plate voltage. Helps direct electrons from the cathode to the anode, in a more direct path. Space-charge, energy flow thing.

Anyhow, a very nice article on all this (need to brush up on a bit of calculus :lol: ):


http://www.john-a-harper.com/tubes201/


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Post subject: Re: Need some help identifying odd speakers in a 65 Super Re
Posted: Sat Sep 29, 2012 12:17 am
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BMW2002Ti wrote:
Arjay, I remember learning in Physics, this crazy thing called "shot noise." Basically, if the electroncs going from the cathode to the anode slow down, en route, they are more likely to randomly & unintentionally hit parts of the tubes, generating noise.

One of the basic reasons to use a healthy anode plate voltage. Helps direct electrons from the cathode to the anode, in a more direct path. Space-charge, energy flow thing.

Anyhow, a very nice article on all this (need to brush up on a bit of calculus :lol: ):

http://www.john-a-harper.com/tubes201/


Makes sense to me. The higher B+ assists in keeping the flow focused and minimizing spurious (ie: non-ballastic) electrons from colliding with each other and the tube's internal structure.

That's one for you engineer-types to hash out though -- me, I'm merely a wrench turner and a soldering-iron jockey.

:mrgreen:

Arjay

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Post subject: Re: Need some help identifying odd speakers in a 65 Super Re
Posted: Sat Sep 29, 2012 9:27 am
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Holly crap guys, this is StarTrek tech stuff to us stupid string plucke'rs. I'm good for basic electronics (mostly SS), I still don't understand how a Vacuum tube did the same thing a Transistor did (and that's even old tech now) and I'm 63! But at least I knew they were called a Fleming valve. :lol:

I'm sure you are right about the age being a partial factor in my aural senses feeling my newer '76 sounding quieter and cleaner than the early 60's BF Vibrolux's and Twin Revs I've used in studios. But they were all kept pristine and updates component wise by constant Amp Tech care, otherwise the recording engineers would kick them out of the studio's equipment collection. So I'm still wondering, was certain Silver Face Fenders as good as or better (subjective, I understand) than BF Fenders?

I've read that CBS did make an effort to improve the amp line (in disagreement with Leo) in ways they felt important - quieter, cleaner, louder, more mellow - perhaps at the cost of some traditional "Fender sound". I've also read that the CBS "improvements" went through stages of mistakes and revisions, some terrible years and some pretty damn good model years. My Uncle worked for Fender in Santa Ana and Fullerton from after the Korean war till the 1990's, but he was a production engineering manager for guitar part of the business, nothing to do with the amp side of Fender. I remember him B and C'ing about how CBS was hell bent on cutting production costs on the guitars for the last two years before selling Fender to the management group. I know the guitars suffered, I have several early 80's, including a "Smith" 83 Strat ("Two Knob Strat"). The Japanese Fenders by Fujigen Gakki were far better then most "America" Fenders of that era. Though there are some notable exceptions like the Fender Stratocaster, Telecaster and P-Bass / Jazz "Elite" series, which are tremendous guitars. My 83 Stratocaster Elite is still my main studio Strat (once I finally learned how to get that crazy new trem setup right - never goes out of tune after that).

You guys sound (pun intended) like you know this Amp stuff, what years were terrible and what years were better or great? And, did Fender change speakers quality in various years too were crap or better, that contributed to the bad or good years?


Last edited by vintageguitarz on Sat Sep 29, 2012 2:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post subject: Re: Need some help identifying odd speakers in a 65 Super Re
Posted: Sat Sep 29, 2012 11:37 am
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vintageguitarz wrote:
And, did Fender change speakers quality in various years to were crap or better that contributed to the bad or good years?


Well there was nothing sonically remarkable about the OEM Utah's that Fender used after they tossed Jensen under the bus in the mid '60s. And most Oxfords after the mid '60s sounded likewise like crap. Rola showed up in the mid '70s and those seem to have been hit or miss -- some were fine, some had no redeeming sonic value at all. The Utah company morphed into Pyle Industries in the late '70s (with a new EIA code) and their speakers really didn't do anything tonally-speaking. The Gauss PS12 and PS15 replaced JBL as Fender's premium upgraded speaker in the late '70s -- they were well engineered and built, and they performed in a similar fashion to the Lansings only with more power-handling capability. Fender did use JBL's then-new E-series ceramic drivers briefly but they were not very popular and quickly supplanted once Gauss's PS series became available. CTS remained as a Fender-approved vendor for many years, producing both alnico and ceramic drivers of all sizes. Eminence was brought on board in the early '70s to fulfill Fender's demand for 12-inch speakers. And Cerwin-Vega was selected to design and build the 18-inch driver for Fender's PS400 "W-bin" cab. Basically, Fender was all over the map when it came to speakers.

HTH

Arjay

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Post subject: Re: Need some help identifying odd speakers in a 65 Super Re
Posted: Sat Sep 29, 2012 3:45 pm
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Arjay - I had wondered what happened to Utah company. Never like the Pyle speakers, but have had a few amps with Rola's - not bad. Personally I love CTS speakers and 50/60's Jensen's. All my early/mid 60's and 50's Gibson amps have original CTS and Jensen's; wonderful sounding amps, as good or better than the small Fenders of the same time period. I have a '48 Gibson BR-6 with the original 10" Field Effect speaker and no smaller Fender amp I've ever heard can touch it. Still remarkably quiet, clean and the break-up is so linear and smooth.

I've always loved the early JBL premiums found in some of the Fenders I've had the chance to use. I've only had the luck to buy one, a brown 62-63 Fender Pro Amp (picture attached) with a factory installed 15" JBL "Special". My best amp when I was doing Jazz and Swing / Big Band recording and live gigs. The speaker body and magnet housing are like a Mercedes craftsmanship.

Thought you'd might enjoy these 3 vintage of a kind - different era's, from my amp barn. I jokingly call them the Fresh Princetons of Bel Air. All bone stock, the 57 Tweed is a little bit road worn but tight as a new drum.

Image

Image

Image


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Post subject: Re: Need some help identifying odd speakers in a 65 Super Re
Posted: Sat Sep 29, 2012 4:05 pm
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Beautiful "kids", VG!

Is your Pro Amp a 6G5 or a 6G5-A?

I have a late '64 blackface Pro Amp. I tried a D130F in it for awhile but ended up replacing it with a vintage-correct C15N instead. It's a nice complement to my '64 Vibroverb with its D130F when I play the two amps in tandem.

Rawk on!

8)

Arjay

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Post subject: Re: Need some help identifying odd speakers in a 65 Super Re
Posted: Sat Sep 29, 2012 5:16 pm
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Retroverbial wrote:
Beautiful "kids", VG!

Is your Pro Amp a 6G5 or a 6G5-A?

I have a late '64 blackface Pro Amp. I tried a D130F in it for awhile but ended up replacing it with a vintage-correct C15N instead. It's a nice complement to my '64 Vibroverb with its D130F when I play the two amps in tandem.

Rawk on!
8)
Arjay


I never thought of looking before, but the tube chart says it's a "Model 5G5 Production 5", 5 is handwritten. 6L6 power tubes. The tolex does have a kinda "pink" tone to the brown in bright light. Maybe I was wrong thinking it was a 62-63? The JBL 15" is marked "Signature" not Special, as I thought I remembered.

Just did a Google on 5G5 Pro Amp and came up with this EBay Bid that sounds like my model - it's a 1960 with a "transition" 5G5 circuit from the last "Tweeds". No wonder it sounds so wonderful!
http://www.ebay.com/itm/1960-Brown-Fender-Pro-Amp-Tweed-Pro-Killer-5G5-circuit-/120773097147?nma=true&si=M1hEv9BYTy9R77qvpZZmZHY9Mjg%3D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557


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Post subject: Re: Need some help identifying odd speakers in a 65 Super Re
Posted: Sat Sep 29, 2012 5:47 pm
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Indeed. And the early "harmonic tremolo" in the brownface amps is to die for!

8)

Arjay

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Post subject: Re: Need some help identifying odd speakers in a 65 Super Re
Posted: Sun Sep 30, 2012 2:42 am
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I agree with Arjay. These brownfaces with their tube oscillator vibrato/tremolo sections (mine is three 12AX7 driven), have quite a tone. With a Reverb Unit and all the dials --- so can pretty much get a wider range than what most ppl think. More than CA Surf tone.

The Pro in photo has a 6G5-A circuit:

http://www.webphix.com/schematic%20heav ... _schem.pdf


The JBL D130F is a sweetheart of a speaker. I have the TS 5881 tubes put out about 32-24 watts per pair. Their tone is more midrange centered than the 6L6GC. Tough as nails.



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Post subject: Re: Need some help identifying odd speakers in a 65 Super Re
Posted: Sun Sep 30, 2012 10:19 am
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BMW -
That's the exact same JBL "Signature" 15, absolutely no difference, that's in my 5G5 model. You are so right, the sound from that speaker is soooooo sweet! It was the main reason I bought that amp some time around 1970 at a pawn shop. I once tried installing a Jensen 15 in it, don't recall the speaker model number, but was underwhelmed and immediately put the JBL back. So much for trying to out guess Leo's choice of speakers for HIS amp designs. Some where along the line I lost the Tremolo foot switch at a gig. Need to find another vintage one or a real good knock-off.

Your 6G5-A is in awesome condition, looks like new and the Rev Tank too.

I have an old Fender Rev Tank too, believe it's a 62 or 63 because it has the white knobs, but mine is Black Tolex. I've used it some with the Pro, but mostly have it for my Blonde 62 Bassman head and cab. Love that Rev Tank, wish it was a blonde match for the Bassman.

I wonder just how often the Pro Amp was ordered with the upgrade JBL's? That one in the EBay bid that went for $2500 had the standard Jensen 15. Makes me feel good though, I only paid around $200 for my Pro from that Fresno CA pawn shop. :) But that's a long long time ago.


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Post subject: Re: Need some help identifying odd speakers in a 65 Super Re
Posted: Sun Sep 30, 2012 11:03 am
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Jay Fletcher (DBA "jayco" on Ebay) periodically offers the vintage-correct single-button footswitches in the brown-enameled finish. They run around $45 or so.

HTH

Arjay

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Post subject: Re: Need some help identifying odd speakers in a 65 Super Re
Posted: Sun Sep 30, 2012 12:41 pm
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Retroverbial wrote:
Jay Fletcher (DBA "jayco" on Ebay) periodically offers the vintage-correct single-button footswitches in the brown-enameled finish. They run around $45 or so.

HTH
Arjay


Thanks for the tip on jayco.

Just looked on EBay for jayon items, no foot-switches at least for now. But EBay is loaded with hundreds of those 80' / '90 Aluminum trapezoid shaped foot-switches and all those Chinese chrome fake 60's that even Fender sells at absurd prices for what they are. One guy is even selling a late 70's SF dual foot-switches for $120! Another guy wants $249 for a "2000's" dual foot-switches! Nuts! Nuts! Nuts! I'll keep watching EBay and stopping at pawn shops.

I think missing foot-switches are just like those missing socks in the wash and dryer. Where the hell do they all go!?? It seems like there are thousands missing, yet only couple here or there are for sale on EBay or Craigslist. It's some kind of foot-switch troll I tell ya!! :shock: :roll: :lol:


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Post subject: Re: Need some help identifying odd speakers in a 65 Super Re
Posted: Sun Sep 30, 2012 1:12 pm
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I'm guessing that you need some remedial training in Ebay search procedures......

http://www.ebay.com/itm/One-New-Brown-1 ... 519eeb9895

:mrgreen:

HTH

Arjay

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Post subject: Re: Need some help identifying odd speakers in a 65 Super Re
Posted: Sun Sep 30, 2012 2:15 pm
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Retroverbial wrote:
I'm guessing that you need some remedial training in Ebay search procedures......

http://www.ebay.com/itm/One-New-Brown-1 ... 519eeb9895
:mrgreen:

HTH
Arjay


How the hell did I miss that?! I tried jayco as the seller, but I think that's the problem, he goes in his bids as "jayfletcher_jaycomusic". But he's missing the boat on showing up where he should be under - Fender, Vintage Footswitch; cause I got 150 hits and he ain't one of them. Still, $55+ shipping bucks is a bit high from a repro new single FW, even if it is brown. Maybe I'll eventually give in if I can't find an OE black or nickel one.

BMW - What is the color of your Tremolo FS??

Thanks for the link, he has some other interesting stuff too.


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