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Post subject: Re: Building a 2x12 cab for my Bandmaster
Posted: Sat Sep 08, 2012 10:46 am
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Location: Denver, CO, USA
"ARE THERE ANY FENDER AMPS "POST-1960s BLACKFACE" AMPS THAT HAVE WOOD
OR PLYWOOD OR ANY MATERIALS BESIDES MDF FOR BAFFLE BOARD"

I know for sure that the '95-'00 Twin Amp ("Evil Twin") had a 3/4" plywood speaker baffle. I'm pretty sure many/most of the other models in the Pro Tube Series have plywood baffles also.


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Post subject: Re: Building a 2x12 cab for my Bandmaster
Posted: Sat Sep 08, 2012 11:23 am
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BigJay wrote:
I'd like to make one comment first..... I posted the questions to gather information about something I contemplated doing. I was doing research. I almost regret posting the question because of all the personal blather that disrupted the thread. On the other hand, I did learn a few things and I thank everyone who tried to help educate me.

There are a couple on this thread that know me, as I've haunted these Forums for years and entered many debates about what makes instruments and signal chains produce sounds the way they do. Im an economist and research analyst by training and love the science discussion. Long ago, I realized that what "sounds good" is irrelevant to these discussions. The only thing that matters is "why something sounds the way it does" so I can assemble something that sounds the way I want it to sound. Right??? And tone is all about physics. So, if youre not describing something having to do with the physics of tone or construction, its noise.

So, here is what I did and why....

This Bandmaster Reverb is a '76 TFL5005d. The guys at Savage Audio tell me its not like earlier Bandmasters. Its a transition year, the first year Fender used a circuit board. Moreover, they believe it is actually the first version of two that were produced in '76, after small design shift. They told me they believe Fender may have made only a few hundred of these. While its not considered a stellar "Bandmaster", its rare and they offered to buy it to add to their collection. Who knows for sure, but a funny little sidetrack. I hope its true, because I kept it.

I've modified my Bandmaster a little, switching out the tubes to add gain. In fact, I pulled the V1 to divert all juice to the reverb/vibrato channel. Holy crap did that make a difference in tone, even on the old Marshall cab. Louder, punchier, breaks at lower volumes and its much much much warmer and fatter. That directional tone shift was enhanced/accelerated by the V30s in the old Marshall Cab (I switched them for reference). The directional shift was accelerated more with the V30s in the new cab.

For $75, I bought a front loading 2x12 cab that was manufactured in the early 1970s by a company called American Acoustics and dropped two Celestion V30s in it. Its 26"w x 15"h x 14"d, barely larger than the Bandmaster head. Its got two 2" bass ports in the front and and odd shaped, roughly 6x8" opening in the back. The cab may have been a bass cab originally and the back-opening may have been an access to some electronic component installed in the cab. Not sure. The construction appears to be 8 ply 3/4" birch plywood and its glued, screwed and braced every way imaginable. This cab is SOLID and very RIGID and extremely resonant. Rap your knuckles on it and it resonates for several seconds...like it almost rings. I figure I could barely construct my own, of similar quality, for $75. So, Im happy.

The cab has identical Tolex to my amp and similar nickel corners and handle. Its volume/size pairs well, visually with the amp. They look like they belong together. I like that. I intend to replace the cab grill cloth to match the amp. I've also installed T-bolts in the top to accept the screw lugs in the amp. I need to install feet-cups in the cab to accommodate the amps feet. Just ordered them.

I believe rigidity adds punch and projection. Its a small volume cab, so I believe the forward facing bass ports provide better low end response, especially toward me and the audience. The semi-open back may balance forward projection and "filling the room/stage", as I gig small-medium rooms that typically dont require mic'ing the gear for volume and I need to hear myself play.

Anyway...The V30s offer what appears to be a more balanced response. Important as this amp seems to accent mids and highs, as was becoming popular in the mid-70s. Thus, its not surprising that my mid/high accented bandmaster, played through mid/high accented 12T75s, sounds very very shrill. The V30s seems to counteract that and the response seems more rounded. Plus they are advertised to have huge magnets and "seemingly" play louder. Again, who knows, with all the changes I've made.

So...how does it sound?? It sounds "vintage" and I like it.

The bass response is much deeper. The mids are accented, but the highs are tame and easy to highlight with a little treble if necessary. The amp/cab's attack is more pronounced. The system is much much punchier. (interesting given the Marshall 1966b has a particle board closed back). And I've never heard fatness and warmth like this from this amp. Not muddy though. Very nice. Its interesting to note that this new combination (of all changes) has caused me to question my use of a gain-overdrive pedal. This is especially true with my vintage style Les Paul. My Kickassocaster is thinly wound, very delicate and sweet, but sometimes needs a little more "umph". The improved low end response did miracles for those CS '69s I use.

I guess the point is that its a process, right? I dont know if I've achieved my favorite tone, but its much much much closer to that vintage warmth and fattness I expect from old-school gear. The amp is louder with better attack and warmth. Its a very "vintage" tone, which is what I was after.

Cool stuff...

Good for you Big Jay, haven,t heard from you in a good while. I was going to suggest finding a cab. Its def alot cheaper to buy one than build a good one. Sounds like you got what you want. Things never change around here but its been bad lately.


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Post subject: Re: Building a 2x12 cab for my Bandmaster
Posted: Sat Sep 08, 2012 11:42 am
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Joined: Sun Nov 20, 2011 3:16 am
Posts: 2337
strayedstrater wrote:
"ARE THERE ANY FENDER AMPS "POST-1960s BLACKFACE" AMPS THAT HAVE WOOD
OR PLYWOOD OR ANY MATERIALS BESIDES MDF FOR BAFFLE BOARD"

I know for sure that the '95-'00 Twin Amp ("Evil Twin") had a 3/4" plywood speaker baffle. I'm pretty sure many/most of the other models in the Pro Tube Series have plywood baffles also.



Thanks. Good to know. 1990s-2000s have Plywood Baffles from Fender.
It's been a while, but some think that MDF is the only way.
Many know that some boutique amp & cabinet makers use real wood.
Both wood & MDF have benefits.
Great to know that Fender did not use only MDF since the Mid-1960s.

Improtant to me, as "some" follow Fender to a tee. It is good for all
to know Fender used both MDF & wood for baffles post the mid-1960s.

Myself, just gathering info, as I soon want to order a few custom cabs and this
thread has helped me and the OP to have a bit more choice towards our options.

Just read tha the OP has purchased a cab instead of building one.
Shall see. Take care. Toppscore :)

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Post subject: Re: Building a 2x12 cab for my Bandmaster
Posted: Sat Sep 08, 2012 11:47 am
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Joined: Sun Nov 20, 2011 3:16 am
Posts: 2337
BigJay wrote:
Hello.....I just purchased a couple 12" Celestion V30 speakers and now intend to build the perfect speaker cabinet to hold them. Trouble is that I dont know much about cabinet construction. So, I hope somebody out in guitar-nutjob land could offer some insight and advice, including pointing me toward good education and materials resources.


So, you decided to buy instead of build?


BigJay wrote:
For $75, I bought a front loading 2x12 cab that was manufactured in the early 1970s by a company called American Acoustics and dropped two Celestion V30s in it. Its 26"w x 15"h x 14"d, barely larger than the Bandmaster head. Its got two 2" bass ports in the front and and odd shaped, roughly 6x8" opening in the back. The cab may have been a bass cab originally and the back-opening may have been an access to some electronic component installed in the cab. Not sure. The construction appears to be 8 ply 3/4" birch plywood and its glued, screwed and braced every way imaginable. This cab is SOLID and very RIGID and extremely resonant. Rap your knuckles on it and it resonates for several seconds...like it almost rings. I figure I could barely construct my own, of similar quality, for $75. So, Im happy. Cool stuff...


So, the cabinet you purchased has a baffle made with 3/4" birch plywood?
Sounds good to me. Solid with more punch at $75 and you do not have to saw/cut MDF.
Good deal! Congratulations.
Toppscore :)

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Post subject: Re: Building a 2x12 cab for my Bandmaster
Posted: Sat Sep 08, 2012 3:44 pm
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Joined: Thu Oct 14, 2010 8:54 am
Posts: 1179
Location: Florida
BigJay wrote:
I'd like to make one comment first..... I posted the questions to gather information about something I contemplated doing. I was doing research. I almost regret posting the question because of all the personal blather that disrupted the thread. On the other hand, I did learn a few things and I thank everyone who tried to help educate me.

There are a couple on this thread that know me, as I've haunted these Forums for years and entered many debates about what makes instruments and signal chains produce sounds the way they do. Im an economist and research analyst by training and love the science discussion. Long ago, I realized that what "sounds good" is irrelevant to these discussions. The only thing that matters is "why something sounds the way it does" so I can assemble something that sounds the way I want it to sound. Right??? And tone is all about physics. So, if youre not describing something having to do with the physics of tone or construction, its noise.

So, here is what I did and why....

This Bandmaster Reverb is a '76 TFL5005d. The guys at Savage Audio tell me its not like earlier Bandmasters. Its a transition year, the first year Fender used a circuit board. Moreover, they believe it is actually the first version of two that were produced in '76, after small design shift. They told me they believe Fender may have made only a few hundred of these. While its not considered a stellar "Bandmaster", its rare and they offered to buy it to add to their collection. Who knows for sure, but a funny little sidetrack. I hope its true, because I kept it.

I've modified my Bandmaster a little, switching out the tubes to add gain. In fact, I pulled the V1 to divert all juice to the reverb/vibrato channel. Holy crap did that make a difference in tone, even on the old Marshall cab. Louder, punchier, breaks at lower volumes and its much much much warmer and fatter. That directional tone shift was enhanced/accelerated by the V30s in the old Marshall Cab (I switched them for reference). The directional shift was accelerated more with the V30s in the new cab.

For $75, I bought a front loading 2x12 cab that was manufactured in the early 1970s by a company called American Acoustics and dropped two Celestion V30s in it. Its 26"w x 15"h x 14"d, barely larger than the Bandmaster head. Its got two 2" bass ports in the front and and odd shaped, roughly 6x8" opening in the back. The cab may have been a bass cab originally and the back-opening may have been an access to some electronic component installed in the cab. Not sure. The construction appears to be 8 ply 3/4" birch plywood and its glued, screwed and braced every way imaginable. This cab is SOLID and very RIGID and extremely resonant. Rap your knuckles on it and it resonates for several seconds...like it almost rings. I figure I could barely construct my own, of similar quality, for $75. So, Im happy.

The cab has identical Tolex to my amp and similar nickel corners and handle. Its volume/size pairs well, visually with the amp. They look like they belong together. I like that. I intend to replace the cab grill cloth to match the amp. I've also installed T-bolts in the top to accept the screw lugs in the amp. I need to install feet-cups in the cab to accommodate the amps feet. Just ordered them.

I believe rigidity adds punch and projection. Its a small volume cab, so I believe the forward facing bass ports provide better low end response, especially toward me and the audience. The semi-open back may balance forward projection and "filling the room/stage", as I gig small-medium rooms that typically dont require mic'ing the gear for volume and I need to hear myself play.

Anyway...The V30s offer what appears to be a more balanced response. Important as this amp seems to accent mids and highs, as was becoming popular in the mid-70s. Thus, its not surprising that my mid/high accented bandmaster, played through mid/high accented 12T75s, sounds very very shrill. The V30s seems to counteract that and the response seems more rounded. Plus they are advertised to have huge magnets and "seemingly" play louder. Again, who knows, with all the changes I've made.

So...how does it sound?? It sounds "vintage" and I like it.

The bass response is much deeper. The mids are accented, but the highs are tame and easy to highlight with a little treble if necessary. The amp/cab's attack is more pronounced. The system is much much punchier. (interesting given the Marshall 1966b has a particle board closed back). And I've never heard fatness and warmth like this from this amp. Not muddy though. Very nice. Its interesting to note that this new combination (of all changes) has caused me to question my use of a gain-overdrive pedal. This is especially true with my vintage style Les Paul. My Kickassocaster is thinly wound, very delicate and sweet, but sometimes needs a little more "umph". The improved low end response did miracles for those CS '69s I use.

I guess the point is that its a process, right? I dont know if I've achieved my favorite tone, but its much much much closer to that vintage warmth and fattness I expect from old-school gear. The amp is louder with better attack and warmth. Its a very "vintage" tone, which is what I was after.

Cool stuff...


Well, regardless of construction methods or materials, you seem to be much closer to your desired "tone". Sounds like this cabinet has some Mojo and that's a good thing. And all for 75 clams. 8)

Art


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Post subject: Re: Building a 2x12 cab for my Bandmaster
Posted: Sat Sep 08, 2012 5:01 pm
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Nice score Big Jay. It seems many people have been able to score some nice gear lately. I guess I have keep my eyes peeled.

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Post subject: Re: Building a 2x12 cab for my Bandmaster
Posted: Mon Jan 14, 2013 4:09 pm
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Joined: Sat Feb 26, 2011 11:48 am
Posts: 65
Well, I thought maybe some of you jokers would be interested to see the completed amp/cabinet I've put together. As you can see, I've re-clothed the grill and mounted a matching Fender logo to the one on the amp. The cabinet and amp now appear to be made for one another. In fact, they are. Of course, some will disapprove of me frauding out the cab to give the impression its a Fender cab, but Im not selling it and really wont try to mislead anybody. It just looks wonderful, just as good as it sounds. Tell me what you think....
http://bigjaysstuff.shutterfly.com/pictures/9
BigJay's Kickassocaster and my new vintagy Les Paul sound incredible with this amp. Its perfect for the music my band plays...old school soul, R&B, blues and funk. Super Fun.

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BigJay's Custom '69 Kickassocaster
'90 Les Paul Standard "Vintage"
'00 MIJ '62 Tele RI
'76 Fender BandMaster Reverb
'71 Acoustic Control 2x12 w/Celestion V30s
'71 Martin D18
Mesa Mark IV
'65 Deluxe Reverb RI


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Post subject: Re: Building a 2x12 cab for my Bandmaster
Posted: Mon Jan 14, 2013 4:18 pm
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Location: Natural Bridge, Virginia
Interested in seeing your stuff but not interested in having to join Shutterfly to do so. Your site is listed as private.

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Post subject: Re: Building a 2x12 cab for my Bandmaster
Posted: Mon Jan 14, 2013 4:23 pm
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Joined: Sat Feb 26, 2011 11:48 am
Posts: 65
Crap...I cant figure out (or remember) how to post pictures...

Little help??


Thankss.

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BigJay's Custom '69 Kickassocaster
'90 Les Paul Standard "Vintage"
'00 MIJ '62 Tele RI
'76 Fender BandMaster Reverb
'71 Acoustic Control 2x12 w/Celestion V30s
'71 Martin D18
Mesa Mark IV
'65 Deluxe Reverb RI


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Post subject: Re: Building a 2x12 cab for my Bandmaster
Posted: Mon Jan 14, 2013 4:33 pm
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Joined: Thu Oct 14, 2010 8:54 am
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BigJay wrote:
Crap...I cant figure out (or remember) how to post pictures...

Little help??


Thankss.


Click in the "Img" (just above the text area) and paste the link to your photo in between the tags. Don't click on "URL" because that will just redirect people to the same page they got.

Starts with http:// and ends with .jpg, .gif, png, etc....

Most sites like flickr have a share option where you can copy a link...

Art


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Post subject: Re: Building a 2x12 cab for my Bandmaster
Posted: Tue Jan 15, 2013 2:12 am
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Location: Harvard IL
Very cool info, Art!!! Now, if I could only learn how to paste and take pics, I'd be right with you guys!!! Anyway, I don't mind changing baffle boards to baltic birch and different cleating scenarios. Open and closed back experiments are really cool!! MFD is very useful if that's what you're going for. I've messed around with a couple of types of wood on a few cabs( mostly eastern pine and maple) . My woodworking skills are crude and alot of the joining work is done by my friends. But it is all good!!! Art

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Post subject: Re: Building a 2x12 cab for my Bandmaster
Posted: Tue Jan 15, 2013 9:17 am
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My woodworking skills are adequate for the task but my tool selection is limited. Thus, I buy kits that are easily assembled and require only minimal power implements......

Image

The only on-site fabrication required is the baffle board and rear panels and I can easily make those with common hand tools. In this case, I'll be building a simple 20" x 24" x 11.5" bass-reflex enclosure to house a single 15-inch JBL.

Arjay

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