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Post subject: Re: Building a 2x12 cab for my Bandmaster
Posted: Tue Sep 04, 2012 3:13 pm
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Topp, this is one reason for walking away from full solid wood for speaker cabs. Acoustics, not ascestics.

http://www.woodweb.com/knowledge_base/S ... r_MDF.html


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Post subject: Re: Building a 2x12 cab for my Bandmaster
Posted: Tue Sep 04, 2012 3:21 pm
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Toppscore wrote:
Art1 wrote:
Arc-n-spark wrote:
I don't understand why Fender did it. Perhaps it was just because that's what they were using at the time but my '69 DSR head has pine sides and a thick MDF front panel under the grill cloth. I wonder why they didn't use thin ply like on the back panel.


Thin plywood on the back just to keep hands and stuff away from the tubes and any other component that might be exposed. Basic protection for hands and tubes.

MDF on the front (baffle/panel/valence) because that matched the material used on the speaker cabinet.

It makes production quicker and assembly as well. All sides, tops, bottoms from 3/4 ply; fronts from MDF; back thin ply. CBS was trying to cut costs wherever possible. They also went to neoprene insulated wires vs. cloth at about the same time, 68 - 69.the back panel on the DSR might be the same as the one on the Twin Reverb in 69. Art


Good stuff, Art.
Any dates for the transition from Plywood baffles to MDF or particle board baffles?
Cost was the CBS factor?
Any amps from the late 1960s to 2012 to use any wood for baffles?
I am stating the particle board/ MDF is not wood.


Topp,
Cost factors started with Leo. And he would find a way to use any leftover parts as well. Do some research and you will find that he out and out refused to put truss rods in the necks of the first batches of Broadcasters/NoCasters/Telecasters. That decision came back to bite him in the butt. Major cost cutting took place under CBS as you well know. Quality of cabinets and some other components took a hit or two.

As for baffles, wood, plywood, MDF (which can not be made without wood) well, I am not going to bring that discussion over here. There is already another thread with that discussion going on.

Cheers,
Art


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Post subject: Re: Building a 2x12 cab for my Bandmaster
Posted: Tue Sep 04, 2012 3:25 pm
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BMW2002Ti wrote:
Topp, this is one reason for walking away from full solid wood for speaker cabs. Acoustics, not ascestics.
http://www.woodweb.com/knowledge_base/S ... r_MDF.html



I read the top 1/3rd. will get to it all, later. Definitely.

The article typically goes back to plywood and MDF.
Solid wood does not have the flexibility.
They tend to discuss closed boxes and included plywood & MDF.
I will read more but I wonder about open-back cabinets ~ if wood (vs) plywood/MDF
is still an issue.

Good stuff, but if it is plywood or MDF, we're are back on subject.

This thread's OP I believe is interested in an unported closed 2x12, if I am correct.
Therefore, good choices are plywood and MDF.

Did you read some of the links I posted earlier that discuss baffle board flexing?
Thanks, BMW. Toppscore :)

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Post subject: Re: Building a 2x12 cab for my Bandmaster
Posted: Tue Sep 04, 2012 3:44 pm
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On a full open back combo cabinet, it's a whole different ball of wax. Solid works well for Clapton. But I think most really won't notice the difference in the "tone" of the wood. I would still go with "voidless" plywood.

Art


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Post subject: Re: Building a 2x12 cab for my Bandmaster
Posted: Tue Sep 04, 2012 3:52 pm
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Just as an example of well-made MDF, that lasts & sounds good... I broke out my Canon and shot a few photos of the JBL speakers I have in my man-cave/guitar fix-it shop.

Quality of craftmanship, knowing acoustics, and being able to hit a desired end-point trumps everything else, when it comes to tone. And long life. Speaker cab is an art. A craft. Where knowing your material characteristics and your own abilities is much more important than what wood is used. IMHO, at least...

All speakers are at least 25-years old. All are solid and still working. Driven by Bi-amped NAD's.

L-300. Typical sheen of harden MDF surface.

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Note MDF material around port:

Image

L100 with Marantz Tuner:

Image

Note typical MDF "edge."

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Post subject: Re: Building a 2x12 cab for my Bandmaster
Posted: Tue Sep 04, 2012 4:15 pm
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+1

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Post subject: Re: Building a 2x12 cab for my Bandmaster
Posted: Wed Sep 05, 2012 5:45 am
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Art1 wrote:
On a full open back combo cabinet, it's a whole different ball of wax. Solid works well for Clapton. But I think most really won't notice the difference in the "tone" of the wood. I would still go with "voidless" plywood. Art


As our researched links point out, "Voidless is Good"

"Chicks DIG Voidless" :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

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Post subject: Re: Building a 2x12 cab for my Bandmaster
Posted: Wed Sep 05, 2012 5:56 am
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BMW2002Ti wrote:
Just as an example of well-made MDF, that lasts & sounds good... I broke out my Canon and shot a few photos of the JBL speakers I have in my man-cave/guitar fix-it shop. Quality of craftmanship, knowing acoustics, and being able to hit a desired end-point trumps everything else, when it comes to tone. And long life. Speaker cab is an art. A craft. Where knowing your material characteristics and your own abilities is much more important than what wood is used. IMHO, at least...
All speakers are at least 25-years old. All are solid and still working. Driven by Bi-amped NAD's.
L-300. Typical sheen of harden MDF surface.
Note MDF material around port:
L100 with Marantz Tuner:
Note typical MDF "edge."


Good lookin' sheen and quality.
I feel enough has been said.
I have awakened my curiosity as per the choices for baffles.
I will admit that particle board/MDF is not the worst. Third best in my opinion
when having the choice of Birch plywood or strong thick quality plywood.
The boutique and dedicated small cabinet makers seem (as a majority IMHO)
to prefer plywood & brich over MDF. But, that preference could be part of a
set of reasons to sell against Fender's MDF/particle board baffles.


From Wiki:
When MDF is cut a large quantity of dust particles are released into the air. It is important that a respirator be worn and the material be cut in a controlled and ventilated environment. It is a good practice to seal the exposed edges to limit the emissions from the binders contained in this material.

Formaldehyde resins are commonly used to bind MDF together, and testing has consistently revealed that MDF products emit urea-formaldehyde and other volatile organic compounds that pose health risks at sufficient concentrations, for at least several months after manufacture. Urea-formaldehyde is always being slowly released from the surface of MDF. When painting it is good idea to coat all sides of the finished piece in order to seal in the urea-formaldehyde. Wax and oil finishes may be used as finishes but they are less effective at sealing in the urea-formaldehyde.

Whether these constant emissions of formaldehyde reach harmful levels in real-world environments is not yet fully determined. The primary concern is for the industries using formaldehyde. As far back as 1987 the U.S. EPA classified it as a "probable human carcinogen" and after more studies the WHO International Agency for Research on Cancer (IARC), in 1995, also classified it as a "probable human carcinogen". Further information and evaluation of all known data led the IARC to reclassify formaldehyde as a "known human carcinogen"[8] associated with nasal sinus cancer and nasopharyngeal cancer, and possibly with leukaemia in June 2004.

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Post subject: Re: Building a 2x12 cab for my Bandmaster
Posted: Wed Sep 05, 2012 7:27 am
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Be sure the birch you buy is of the quality you expect. The birch from HD got bad reviews for having voids and poorly glued veneer. The birch was priced $14 a sheet higher than the MDF. I wouldn't bother to pay the higher price of quality birch when MDF is so tried and true but hey... it's not my money that your planning on spending. I just don't understand why you feel a need to bash MDF. Is it to justify your decision to use plywood?

I hope that the OP hasn't been put off by the deviations this thread has taken. I hope he chimes in to let us know what he thinks of the advice that's been presented.

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Post subject: Re: Building a 2x12 cab for my Bandmaster
Posted: Wed Sep 05, 2012 8:08 am
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Arc-n-spark wrote:
Be sure the birch you buy is of the quality you expect. The birch from HD got bad reviews for having voids and poorly glued veneer. The birch was priced $14 a sheet higher than the MDF. I wouldn't bother to pay the higher price of quality birch when MDF is so tried and true but hey... it's not my money that your planning on spending. I just don't understand why you feel a need to bash MDF. Is it to justify your decision to use plywood?
I hope that the OP hasn't been put off by the deviations this thread has taken. I hope he chimes in to let us know what he thinks of the advice that's been presented.


Yes to the OP, but we are discussing baffle board options
and he'll be knowledgable to make choices. Right?

Regarding birch or plywood, I would hire a company that already uses those
products and can convince me that they believe in their choices.

Also, I have not bashed MDF. Sorry you feel that way.
Right now there are four choices:
For closed speaker cabinets: MDF Plywood & Birch wood or Birch plywood
For ported or openback cabinets: add some solid woods as a fourth option


But, on the other hand, some swear by MDF.
I am investigating and am in an iquiry mode.

If someone gave me Fender products, I would not care.
But, if I have a choice, then that is what it our discussion is all about, IMHO.

My personal experience with MDF or particle board on my vintage Fender amps has
been bad on at least two amps (three, because I returned a water damaged1966 Deluxe Reverb).
Other than that, I never really gave a hoot . . . . .
until I noticed that with choice, some would select MDF while very few dedicated amp cabinet
or speaker cabinet builders choose MDF at all. Most choose wood.


The previous post about toxic MDF products is alarming.
Why choose it in the first place? Why build with it?
Why cut/saw and create in-home health hazzard potential? Just my humble opinion.

Why do you desire MDF?

Toppscore :)

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Post subject: Re: Building a 2x12 cab for my Bandmaster
Posted: Wed Sep 05, 2012 12:01 pm
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I guess what this all boils down to really is that the OP wants to match a cab to his amp head so he ought to try to duplicate a cab that was intended to be used with that amp in the first place no? He has some fine advice and pictured examples to go by on the very first page.

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Post subject: Re: Building a 2x12 cab for my Bandmaster
Posted: Wed Sep 05, 2012 1:05 pm
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Arc-n-spark wrote:
I guess what this all boils down to really is that the OP wants to match a cab to his amp head so he ought to try to duplicate a cab that was intended to be used with that amp in the first place no? He has some fine advice and pictured examples to go by on the very first page.



Arc. Why do you desire MDF?
A lot has been uncovered?
What if Fender uses quality wood?
Would that change your mind?

Also, there are examples of non-MDF post-Blackface amps.

I've posted the question, several times:

ARE THERE ANY FENDER AMPS "POST-1960s BLACKFACE" AMPS THAT HAVE WOOD
OR PLYWOOD OR ANY MATERIALS BESIDES MDF FOR BAFFLE BOARD :?: :?: :?:

ANY AMP, ANY AMP LINE OR ANY YEAR OR SPECIAL ORDER OR CUSTOM SHOP
OR REISSUE OR ANNIVERSARY OR ANYTHING :?: :?: :?:



Also, I truly wonder if Fender used MDF for cost cutting measures?
I truly wonder why if MDF is so great, why does Marshall only use wood?
I truly wonder why most Boutique or Quality amp/cabinet makers do not use MDF?
Anyway, I just wonder . . . . . .


==================
BTW . . .
This reminds me of the subject of Point-to-Point Handwired circuitry
and the argument raged to name calling and bitter words.
The whole world was mis-informed and are all wrong :roll: :roll:
Then, when asked to produce any Fender amp from 1946-2012
that fell into the "proper definitation" of P2P, ONLY TWO 1946 amps qualified.
:lol: :lol: :lol: Some people just argue to be arguing.
I produced several Fender manuals that Fender wrote & claimed
and featured the benefits of P2P in their own writing duing the 1980s-2000s.
But . . . . . that is another story.

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Last edited by Toppscore on Wed Sep 05, 2012 4:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post subject: Re: Building a 2x12 cab for my Bandmaster
Posted: Wed Sep 05, 2012 3:36 pm
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..I for one, sure would appreciate the return of intelligent conversation, spirit of assistance and the simple yet effective ignoring of those who can't seem to hang with that...
Best regards,
rob

I'll second that Rob, however for some it may be that ship has sailed.

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Post subject: Re: Building a 2x12 cab for my Bandmaster
Posted: Wed Sep 05, 2012 6:00 pm
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Arnold Layne wrote:
..I for one, sure would appreciate the return of intelligent conversation, spirit of assistance and the simple yet effective ignoring of those who can't seem to hang with that...
Best regards, rob

I'll second that Rob, however for some it may be that ship has sailed.


Yes. Nice, isn't it?

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Post subject: Re: Building a 2x12 cab for my Bandmaster
Posted: Sat Sep 08, 2012 9:57 am
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I'd like to make one comment first..... I posted the questions to gather information about something I contemplated doing. I was doing research. I almost regret posting the question because of all the personal blather that disrupted the thread. On the other hand, I did learn a few things and I thank everyone who tried to help educate me.

There are a couple on this thread that know me, as I've haunted these Forums for years and entered many debates about what makes instruments and signal chains produce sounds the way they do. Im an economist and research analyst by training and love the science discussion. Long ago, I realized that what "sounds good" is irrelevant to these discussions. The only thing that matters is "why something sounds the way it does" so I can assemble something that sounds the way I want it to sound. Right??? And tone is all about physics. So, if youre not describing something having to do with the physics of tone or construction, its noise.

So, here is what I did and why....

This Bandmaster Reverb is a '76 TFL5005d. The guys at Savage Audio tell me its not like earlier Bandmasters. Its a transition year, the first year Fender used a circuit board. Moreover, they believe it is actually the first version of two that were produced in '76, after small design shift. They told me they believe Fender may have made only a few hundred of these. While its not considered a stellar "Bandmaster", its rare and they offered to buy it to add to their collection. Who knows for sure, but a funny little sidetrack. I hope its true, because I kept it.

I've modified my Bandmaster a little, switching out the tubes to add gain. In fact, I pulled the V1 to divert all juice to the reverb/vibrato channel. Holy crap did that make a difference in tone, even on the old Marshall cab. Louder, punchier, breaks at lower volumes and its much much much warmer and fatter. That directional tone shift was enhanced/accelerated by the V30s in the old Marshall Cab (I switched them for reference). The directional shift was accelerated more with the V30s in the new cab.

For $75, I bought a front loading 2x12 cab that was manufactured in the early 1970s by a company called Acoustic Control and dropped two Celestion V30s in it. Its 26"w x 15"h x 14"d, barely larger than the Bandmaster head. Its got two 2" bass ports in the front and and odd shaped, roughly 6x8" opening in the back. The cab may have been a bass cab originally and the back-opening may have been an access to some electronic component installed in the cab. Not sure. The construction appears to be 8 ply 3/4" birch plywood and its glued, screwed and braced every way imaginable. This cab is SOLID and very RIGID and extremely resonant. Rap your knuckles on it and it resonates for several seconds...like it almost rings. I figure I could barely construct my own, of similar quality, for $75. So, Im happy.

The cab has identical Tolex to my amp and similar nickel corners and handle. Its volume/size pairs well, visually with the amp. They look like they belong together. I like that. I intend to replace the cab grill cloth to match the amp. I've also installed T-bolts in the top to accept the screw lugs in the amp. I need to install feet-cups in the cab to accommodate the amps feet. Just ordered them.

I believe rigidity adds punch and projection. Its a small volume cab, so I believe the forward facing bass ports provide better low end response, especially toward me and the audience. The semi-open back may balance forward projection and "filling the room/stage", as I gig small-medium rooms that typically dont require mic'ing the gear for volume and I need to hear myself play.

Anyway...The V30s offer what appears to be a more balanced response. Important as this amp seems to accent mids and highs, as was becoming popular in the mid-70s. Thus, its not surprising that my mid/high accented bandmaster, played through mid/high accented 12T75s, sounds very very shrill. The V30s seems to counteract that and the response seems more rounded. Plus they are advertised to have huge magnets and "seemingly" play louder. Again, who knows, with all the changes I've made.

So...how does it sound?? It sounds "vintage" and I like it.

The bass response is much deeper. The mids are accented, but the highs are tame and easy to highlight with a little treble if necessary. The amp/cab's attack is more pronounced. The system is much much punchier. (interesting given the Marshall 1966b has a particle board closed back). And I've never heard fatness and warmth like this from this amp. Not muddy though. Very nice. Its interesting to note that this new combination (of all changes) has caused me to question my use of a gain-overdrive pedal. This is especially true with my vintage style Les Paul. My Kickassocaster is thinly wound, very delicate and sweet, but sometimes needs a little more "umph". The improved low end response did miracles for those CS '69s I use.

I guess the point is that its a process, right? I dont know if I've achieved my favorite tone, but its much much much closer to that vintage warmth and fattness I expect from old-school gear. The amp is louder with better attack and warmth. Its a very "vintage" tone, which is what I was after.

Cool stuff...

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Last edited by BigJay on Mon Jan 14, 2013 3:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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