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Post subject: Re: Building a 2x12 cab for my Bandmaster
Posted: Tue Sep 04, 2012 4:03 am
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tbazzone wrote:
This fool is destroying this site almost everything that gets posted has his stupidity attached to it anymore. Nothing is helpful it usually just starts fights. We are all dumber for being subjected to his drivel. Im done.


Tabby, you are ALWAYS complaining if a subject does not GO YOUR SELFISH WAY.
BE DONE ~ Adios. Have all your amps in particle board. Convert your plywood amps
to particle board. "Wave a Particle Board Lover" banner on your front lawn and within
your Fender avatar. Get particle board sponsor ships.
Go door-to-door for "Holy Particle Board Conversions".

I've made statements that particle board is not good, the best choice & second to plywood.
Agree or disagree :?: :?: :?:
I'm not condeming MDF/particle board, simply making simple better choices with plywood.
MDF/Particle board is a great second choice. But with good knowedge, there's
no good second choice to quality strong thick plywood. IS THERE?



I showed pictures of a variety of amps. You and your girlfriend go start a fight.
Why DO YOU CONTRIBUTE NEGATIVE COMMENTS AND COMPLAIN???
TABBY, YOU DO THIS CONSTANTLY. YOU ARE A COMPLAINER.
EITHER DEFEND PARTICLE BOARD BAFFLE, CONTRIBUTE POSSIBILITIES,
CONTRIBUTE EXPERIENCES, JUST READ, BUT DO NOT GRIPE & B-TCH & COMPLAIN.
Take it elsewhere. Start a particle board lovers thread.


(IS particle board even considered wood :?: )
(IS NOT particle board actually a higher percentage of horse glue and chemicals :?: )
(HAS ANYONE done a toxicity test on particle board chemical substances :?:)
(Would you let your children chew on particle board :?: )
Just wondering . . . . . What does any one think?



I'll bet EVERYONE (including Tabby) knows there are particle board, plywood and
baffles made of other wood. Right :?: So, silly Tabby, that is not our discussion, is it :?:

So, if given a choice . . . .
Knowing most highly sought after Tweed Blonde Brownface amps do not use particle board.
Knowing that particle board cracks, chips, slivers, rips more easily.
Knowing that heavy speakers may cause particle board damage.
Knowing the particle board is not even wood, but glue and chemicals.
Knowing that you HAVE A CHOICE to make your amp or cab special . . . .


Do you chose Particle Board or quality thick plywood?

I choose plywood. Because of this this thread, there will never be anyother choice for me.
Toppscore :)

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Last edited by Toppscore on Tue Sep 04, 2012 5:20 am, edited 5 times in total.

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Post subject: Re: Building a 2x12 cab for my Bandmaster
Posted: Tue Sep 04, 2012 4:25 am
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Rebelsoul wrote:
Seriously Topp???!! :?
You can't tell and think that all that great music of the 60s made with Blackface amps none had particle board baffles,look at that '64 Super Reverb!!......I give up!




Reb, I agree. There's great music played with plywood and particle board.
Tube amps, solid state amps and PCBoard amps.
Fender amps and non-Fender amps. etc etc.

I'm not condeming MDF/particle board, simply making simple better choices with plywood.

But, a year ago when I presented my newly found 1954 Fender 5D6 4x10 Bassman,
and quoted several sources that this Bassman was better sounding than 5F6A Bassmans,
there was an uproar and you should have read the number of posts, threads & comments
about the greatest sounding Fender amps for tone and sounds and noise :!:
Of course the Deluxe Reverb and Super Reverb and Twin Reverb and Showman Reverb,
made the list. I own three (returned the DR).

But, even more the famous amps from Tweed, Brownface, Blonde eras were much more desired.
These older amps have less technology, less innovation advancement, more production line quality issues
and more consistency issues. But, they are still more revered, desired and complimented.

Great music everywhere & every which way ~ Non-Particle Board Baffled Amps
are sought as well or even more desired.

Toppscore :)

BTW, I do love this thread. I'll have some speaker cabinets built with plywood.
As well, I'll buy some normal speaker ported common cabinets, but will request plywood.
Ultimately, if possible, I/we can A-B on YouTube. I think that'd be real cool.
Can you imagine an A-B with my 1964 Super Amp with particle board,
the pull the amps speaker cable to a plywood 4x10???
Same with the Twin Reverb and the earlier plywood amps as well.
FYI, all of this fits perfectly into my personal goals, anyway.
TONE POSSIBLITY is the GOAL :shock:

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Last edited by Toppscore on Tue Sep 04, 2012 5:18 am, edited 3 times in total.

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Post subject: Re: Building a 2x12 cab for my Bandmaster
Posted: Tue Sep 04, 2012 4:49 am
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Here we go again with mixing terms. Please note there is a difference between MDF and particle board.

Please see this site for an explanation.

http://www.doityourself.com/stry/particleboard-vs-mdf#b

I hope the OP is getting some useful information from this thread. I know I always learn something from the guys here who actually build and service amps and cabinets. :) I hope to build one myself as I need a 2X12 too.

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Post subject: Re: Building a 2x12 cab for my Bandmaster
Posted: Tue Sep 04, 2012 5:14 am
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Arc-n-spark wrote:
Here we go again with mixing terms. Please note there is a difference between MDF and particle board. Please see this site for an explanation.
http://www.doityourself.com/stry/particleboard-vs-mdf#b
I hope the OP is getting some useful information from this thread. I know I always learn something from the guys here who actually build and service amps and cabinets. :) I hope to build one myself as I need a 2X12 too.


Thanks Arc. Good short reading. This article helps to provide choice.
But, the last few paragraphs are not favorable, in my own opinion.
Plywood, MDF & particle board have strenghts and weaknesses
although besides being lower in price, there is not much to discount plywood.
Putting this info into the OP's thread is great:

"While formaldehyde is still used as the bonding resin to hold the fibers together, the environmental and health risks of that chemical are cause for some alarm. Some manufacturers of MDF are moving away from formaldehyde, opting instead for polyurethane resins. Despite this, MDF requires wood particles which in turn come from wood waste, so it is not an entirely sustainable material.

Like particleboard, MDF can expand when moist which can lead to cracking and breaking. Where there is not enough humidity in the air, MDF will shrink after time. In this sense, it reacts in a similar way as wood. Because formaldehyde is still used to bond its component fibers, sanding and cutting it can cause health problems. It is not a suitable finish product. Even if used as the foundational material for cabinets, floors, doors or furniture, it should always be trimmed out with solid wood.

When choosing between MDF or particleboard, you are essentially getting the same thing, although MDF is much denser and therefore stronger than particleboard. Both involve toxic chemicals in their production, can expand and crack with too much exposure to moisture and are not suitable for finishing wood products. Nevertheless, the price of both wood-based composites is less than solid wood and some plywood, and the strength of both makes it superior in many ways to its natural wood counterparts."


I can see why manufactures go with MDF or particle board.
They ares cheap and strong. They both have chemical & moisture issues.
Does not mean MDF or particle board are terrible.

I do not feel particle board of MDF boards are terrible.
Just will will choose strong thick quality plywood.

Arc-n-spark. After reading the second half of your suggested article,
and considering one day you will make a cabinet, are you completely
sold on using particle board or MDF over quality thick strong plywood?

Toppscore :)

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Post subject: Re: Building a 2x12 cab for my Bandmaster
Posted: Tue Sep 04, 2012 7:23 am
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I think I would use the MDF since it's so widely used and has proven itself over time. I'm not opposed to MDF in that I don't ever expect to use any cabinet in a wet environment. I certainly wouldn't want my speakers to be in that sort of environment so whatever is good for the speakers is good for MDF and the same could be said for the what's bad. So if your amp/cab is made with this stuff and is treated right I see no problem with it. I am curious as to the problems you say people have with it and if the problems are associated with moisture damaged MDF. Using the right screws with MDF, the right size pilot holes, not using gorilla strength to tighten screws are all part of success while working with this stuff.

I also think a coat or two of paint on MDF could help keep moisture from damaging it but I'm no pro with using MDF.

Please don't take this as a bash against plywood. I just think that the density of MDF has something to do with why it is used as well as the price VS a high quality plywood of the same thickness. Plywood can have voids, knots and uneven glue between plys so not just any plywood would be OK for a speaker panel. Would you want to deal with that affecting your build job or would you like something more consitent which I think you will find with MDF?

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Post subject: Re: Building a 2x12 cab for my Bandmaster
Posted: Tue Sep 04, 2012 8:00 am
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Either MDF or solid wood or plywood will work fine. With today's technology and glues. And a good veneer will cover many "sins."

However, the physics of the audio will be different.

MDF has a lower resonance frequency than most solid or plywoods. This can lead to a boomy bass & muddy midrange, lacking clean midrange harmonics.

The ratio of the depth to surface face of the cab or enclosure can help eliminate low frequency standing waves, which add bad things to the bass. This ratio is speaker, MDF, & MDF thickness dependent. Use of dampening material (like fiber-wool) will help break-up these unwanted waves, too. At the cost of less internal volume.

Notice, how some ppl (including Fender) used plywood on the sides of the cabs and MDF for the speaker baffle board? The idea is to get the nice warm harmonics of the plywood and the solid bass resonance of the MDF. An old JBL trick used with their cabs that had one full-range speaker. I believe I have seen the white paper on this issue, about 35 years ago.


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Post subject: Re: Building a 2x12 cab for my Bandmaster
Posted: Tue Sep 04, 2012 8:05 am
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Arc-n-spark wrote:
I think I would use the MDF since it's so widely used and has proven itself over time. I'm not opposed to MDF in that I don't ever expect to use any cabinet in a wet environment. I certainly wouldn't want my speakers to be in that sort of environment so whatever is good for the speakers is good for MDF and the same could be said for the what's bad. So if your amp/cab is made with this stuff and is treated right I see no problem with it. I am curious as to the problems you say people have with it and if the problems are associated with moisture damaged MDF. Using the right screws with MDF, the right size pilot holes, not using gorilla strength to tighten screws are all part of success while working with this stuff. I also think a coat or two of paint on MDF could help keep moisture from damaging it but I'm no pro with using MDF. Please don't take this as a bash against plywood. I just think that the density of MDF has something to do with why it is used as well as the price VS a high quality plywood of the same thickness. Plywood can have voids, knots and uneven glue between plys so not just any plywood would be OK for a speaker panel. Would you want to deal with that affecting your build job or would you like something more consitent which I think you will find with MDF?



I believe this is a very interesting subject.
I wonder if ANY Fender factory amps have shipped with plywood baffles
or with any other substance since the 1980s that are not MDF/plywood.

Also, looking at some of my amp heads from the Silverface have plywood.
No biggie as far as what I do own. But, thinking about famous Tone Monsters from the
Pre-CBS era, one has to wonder about the quality of plywood and it's undeniable tones.

Personally, I've had a 1968 Twin Reverb with a replaced baffle as the baffle split apart.
I've or have had an amp head with a split in the baffle. Right now, forgetting which one.
I have seen pictures and will try to find them.

Following is some randomly found information & ideas regarding amp baffle boards.
All are postivie towards Birch, Plywood and not much towards MDF/particle boards
Enjoy. Toppscore 8)



====================
Image
"That baffle is made particle board, it appears. If it was submerged it would also be damaged as Curt above describes. That stuff wicks up moisture like nobody's business. It's is an odd line, with some "dribble" stains to the right and destict up curl on the left. I'd put money on this not being flood damage." "The particle board would show obvious signs of being water soaked (it would swell up badly at the very least)." "That is not flood or submersion damage. If so, the cabinet would be in much worse shape. My guess would be stored in a basement or other damp place that had not standing water, but high moisture levels coming through the floor. I do not think this appears to have really damaged the cabinet, but it would cut some from the value. You could paint the inside with a water stain primer if you want it to look better."




====================
http://www.300guitars.com/300s-tips/300-tip-plywood-baffles-vs-particle-board/
Here is a tip for anyone who has a guitar amp or extension cabinet with a particle board baffle. Changing the baffle from partical board to a high quality plywood will give your cabinet a more open and natural sound. Some players describe particle board sounding and feeling dead as compared to plywood. This is a relatively inexpensive upgrade to any cabinet and you get a great “bang for the buck” so to speak. Larry Rodgers of Rodgers Amplifiers in Florida makes high quality replacement baffles for their particale board counterparts. Larry also makes reproduction amplifer cabinets and offers tube amp repair and restoration services. Here is the contact information to get a plywood replacement baffle from Rodgers: LJrodgers@embarqmail.com and Phone 239-649-8799. You can also read the informative Spotlight feature on Larry here.




====================
Birch * Scroll down to the lower 1/3rd of this page:
http://www.bluesamps.com/blueverb_construction.asp

Bluetron is one of the only companies to put pictures of its bare cabinet's on its website. Why? Because we have nothing to hide. These are the best cabinets you can buy. Period. We start with premium-quality, 13-ply, no-void, Baltic birch. We use old-fashioned, precision box joints cut to exacting specifications. We use a micrometer (that's right 1/1000th of an inch) to QC the work. Every joint is clamped rather than fastened with staples. It takes a lot longer, but it's a lot stronger. Same thing with the cleats. We glue those to the shell with clamps instead of staples, for one reason. You guessed it: strength. Leo Fender used pine for his cleats, but pine can split and strip easily. Bluetron uses poplar because it's stronger. We have to make these cabinets in-house because no one is making cabinets of this quality in the industry today. We've improved the baffle board, too. Leo Fender used particle board for one reason. Premium-quality, no-void, Baltic birch was not available in the 1960s. Any other plywood can develop nasty vibrations where tiny voids exist. Once that happens go ahead and throw the baffle board out. There's no repairing it. We use premium-quality, 11-ply, no-void, Baltic birch for the baffle and then clue and clamp a 3-ply frame to raise the grille cloth off the speaker opening. Again, no staples. We use 16 C-clamps and glue cauls to create the strongest bond possible. Each baffle requires hours of craftsmanship to create. Many competitors will tout the quality of their cabinetry, but who among them are willing to post pictures of their joinery on the Internet. We are confident that these are the best-made, strongest cabinets you'll find anywhere


========================
http://www.johnson-amp.com/cabinets.htm
VOID Free Woods. As the statement implies, these are woods that are free of voids. Voids are open areas that reside in "inexpensive" plywood boxes. These are the football shaped cutouts used by the manufacturers to punch out knots in the wood. If you buy a cheap box made from cheap wood you'll run the risk of voids. Big deal? Yes. Your cabinet will rattle, especially at higher volumes. There's no fix for this. Every Johnson cabinet is made to exacting specifications from totally void free woods.

13-Ply Baltic Birch baffle boards. The baffle board is the "sounding board" for your cabinet, very similar to the "top" on an acoustic guitar. This is the board your speaker(s) is mounted to. This board has to be strong; strong enough to handle everyday use with a very heavy loudspeaker bolted to it. Baltic Birch is a much-used term however; do we know what it really is? A "Baltic" birch tree comes from the "Baltic" region of Russia. Being a colder climate the trees grow much slower there. When the trees grow slower they grow stronger with much tighter grain. This produces a very strong wood that is generally free of voids (see above.) Be a cautious consumer. There are many cabinets out there that use MDF baffle boards. While MDF is an excellent wood for cabinet construction it should "never" be used for your baffle board. This is a big no-no in guitarland. Your speaker will eventually pull away and break through the baffle board. Insist on 13-ply "Baltic Birch" baffle boards otherwise you may have a dysfunctional amp or cabinet you can do nothing with.




======================
http://www.squidoo.com/vintage-amplifier-cabinets-and-restorations
Baffle Boards
Next you need to make a good baffle (speaker) board to install your speakers on. For floating baffles you want a strong yet flexible ply wood. A floating baffle is one that is attached only on two opposite side. This gives it more flexibility, which guitar amplifier speakers like, at least in most cases. A lot of the old vintage Fender Amplifiers that I like have the floating baffle, and I build most of my custom cabinets with the floating baffle if applicable. For lighter speakers I normally use 3/8" ply for 10" speakers, 1/2" ply on 12" speakers, and 3/4" ply on 15" speakers. I try to use fur ply because it is more flexible that birch ply, but if I am installing heavy speakers(like JBL's or something) I will stick with the birch ply because of it's strength. Ultimately it is up to the customer but I like to suggest my favorites. Most Vintage Marshall amps have a master volume, as well they have more powerful transformers and tubes than their American counterparts. Also all Marshall cabinets are made from baltic birch ply and use birch baffle boards which are fixed, not floating.




=======================
http://www.thegearpage.net/board/archive/index.php/t-937639.html

http://www.thegearpage.net/board/archive/index.php/t-560787.html

http://www.tdpri.com/forum/archive/index.php/t-324664.html

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Last edited by Toppscore on Tue Sep 04, 2012 8:36 am, edited 7 times in total.

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Post subject: Re: Building a 2x12 cab for my Bandmaster
Posted: Tue Sep 04, 2012 8:07 am
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BMW2002Ti wrote:
Either MDF or solid wood or plywood will work fine. With today's technology and glues. And a good veneer will cover many "sins."

However, the physics of the audio will be different.

MDF has a lower resonance frequency than most solid or plywoods. This can lead to a boomy bass & muddy midrange, lacking clean midrange harmonics.

The ratio of the depth to surface face of the cab or enclosure can help eliminate low frequency standing waves, which add bad things to the bass. This ratio is speaker, MDF, & MDF thickness dependent. Use of dampening material (like fiber-wool) will help break-up these unwanted waves, too. At the cost of less internal volume.

Notice, how some ppl (including Fender) used plywood on the sides of the cabs and MDF for the speaker baffle board? The idea is to get the nice warm harmonics of the plywood and the solid bass resonance of the MDF. An old JBL trick used with their cabs that had one full-range speaker. I believe I have seen the white paper on this issue, about 35 years ago.



I was reading that Marshall always used birch and never particle board/MDF.
Just wondering. Marshall is a big company and has many choices to produce
a product to get sales, not lose customers. Toppscore :)

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Last edited by Toppscore on Tue Sep 04, 2012 8:17 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Post subject: Re: Building a 2x12 cab for my Bandmaster
Posted: Tue Sep 04, 2012 8:14 am
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If I were to build this cab, I'd prolly go a route very similar to Arjay's photo. I've put together a LOT of SW into MDF cabs. You use proper t-nuts and speaker gasket material --- those speakers will stay attached to the face under the heaviest output.

If you drop the cab.... well... unless it's made of good bulletproof Plexiglass or something, all bets are off.

The plywood (or solid) sides with make the cab much lighter to lug around than 100% MDF. And prolly give the cab a punchier, cleaner tone (esp overtones).

JMO.


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Post subject: Re: Building a 2x12 cab for my Bandmaster
Posted: Tue Sep 04, 2012 8:22 am
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BMW2002Ti wrote:
If I were to build this cab, I'd prolly go a route very similar to Arjay's photo. I've put together a LOT of SW into MDF cabs. You use proper t-nuts and speaker gasket material --- those speakers will stay attached to the face under the heaviest output.

If you drop the cab.... well... unless it's made of good bulletproof Plexiglass or something, all bets are off.

The plywood (or solid) sides with make the cab much lighter to lug around than 100% MDF. And prolly give the cab a punchier, cleaner tone (esp overtones).

JMO.


But at least, BMW, you now have seen options and if your read the researched
comments from the above post, you have made a choice.
Apparently, Marshall and the above cabinet manufacturers and some of Fender's amps
were built or are built with different woods than using MDF/particle boards.

Another area to consider would be the high-end botique amp/cabinet builders.
What do they use?
Tahnks for your thoughts. Toppscore :)

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Post subject: Re: Building a 2x12 cab for my Bandmaster
Posted: Tue Sep 04, 2012 8:23 am
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" I was reading the Marshall always used birch and never particle board/MDF.
Just wondering. Marshall is a big company and has many choices to produce
a product to get sales, not lose customers. Toppscore "


MDF was developed and patented in the US in the early 1960's. License rights would prolly be in the range the RCA wanted to charge Marshall for the use of 6L6 tubes.

JBL was the first well-known speaker company to use a lot of MDF in their products (including nearly all studio monitors). British and other Euro company stuck to ply and solid until the patents expired. Now, ALL Euro speakers cabs are 100% MDF. For Green reasons.


Last edited by BMW2002Ti on Tue Sep 04, 2012 8:28 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Post subject: Re: Building a 2x12 cab for my Bandmaster
Posted: Tue Sep 04, 2012 8:27 am
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BMW2002Ti wrote:
" I was reading the Marshall always used birch and never particle board/MDF.
Just wondering. Marshall is a big company and has many choices to produce
a product to get sales, not lose customers. Toppscore "


MDF was developed and patented in the US in the early 1960's. License rights would prolly be in the range the RCA wanted to charge Marshall for the use of 6L6 tubes.

JBL was the first well-known speaker company to use a lot of MDF in their products (including nearly all studio monitors). British and other Euro company stuck to ply and solid until the patenet expired. Not, ALL Euro speakers cabs are 100% MDF. For Green reasons.



Good info. What do you know about Fender using particle board/MDF since the
blackface ear? Has Fender EVER used anything else? I believe my 1964 bassman
is plywood. Some others. But, just wondering if there is an official line
that Fender is supposed to be 100% MDF/particle board since the 1960s?
or some models? or special Custom Shop models may be different. Just wondering.

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Post subject: Re: Building a 2x12 cab for my Bandmaster
Posted: Tue Sep 04, 2012 8:39 am
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Topp, A must to properly built any speaker cab (whether guitar or hi-fi)---- when searching for the "ideal" setup ---- are properly calibrated measuring equipment and a choice of known dead, slightly live, very live room.

Signal generator with at least a 50-1500Hz range, Calibrated mike/scope setup. Then, you find those standning wave and other freaky anolomies in the specific speaker/cab setup. And EMPIRICALLY attempt to minimize them, without losing good vibes.

It's what sound engineers do all the time.


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Post subject: Re: Building a 2x12 cab for my Bandmaster
Posted: Tue Sep 04, 2012 9:15 am
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BMW2002Ti wrote:
Topp, A must to properly built any speaker cab (whether guitar or hi-fi)---- when searching for the "ideal" setup ---- are properly calibrated measuring equipment and a choice of known dead, slightly live, very live room.
Signal generator with at least a 50-1500Hz range, Calibrated mike/scope setup. Then, you find those standning wave and other freaky anolomies in the specific speaker/cab setup. And EMPIRICALLY attempt to minimize them, without losing good vibes.
It's what sound engineers do all the time.


HaHa. That is why I will pay for the pros to do a good guaranteed job.
I'll simply pick a good pro that loves to use woods and components
that are agreeable to me. Birch is becoming the way to go, IMHO.
What can the cost difference be between a slab of birch, plywood or particle board? Not much.
On the other hand, gotta respect what Fender & Marshall use in their high-end products.




Anyone find out if Fender has EVER built an amp since the Blackface era
with a baffle board that's not particle board/MDF???
Just wondering. Thanks. Toppscore 8)

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Post subject: Re: Building a 2x12 cab for my Bandmaster
Posted: Tue Sep 04, 2012 9:19 am
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Just a thought.
Has anyone even read the above post of listed links regarding the use of plywood,
MDF/particle board and birch wood for speaker attached baffle boards?

Can anyone share why, after read the links/comments you'd still use particle board/MDF?

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