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Post subject: Building a 2x12 cab for my Bandmaster
Posted: Sat Sep 01, 2012 6:59 am
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Hello.....I just purchased a couple 12" Celestion V30 speakers and now intend to build the perfect speaker cabinet to hold them. Trouble is that I dont know much about cabinet construction. So, I hope somebody out in guitar-nutjob land could offer some insight and advice, including pointing me toward good education and materials resources.

Im building this cabinet to match my Bandmaster Reverb TFL5005d head. Its 45w RMS and 4ohm. I've played it through a Marshall 1966b with two Celestion 12T-75s and I've decided the cab is shrill sounding. I guess that means Im leaning toward a fatter, warmer tone. Im definitely into vintage tones. I play a vintage style Strat and a vintage style Les Paul.

I'll use the cab for gigging. It needs to project sound out into the room but I need to hear it also. My 1966b is so directional that I often cant hear it as the sound travels across the floor.

So, here are a few things Im curious about, that Im considering for this cabinet build. First, I prefer a small footprint, hopefully not significantly larger than my Bandmaster (25"w x 10"d x 13"d). How does the small volume cab impact tone and sound projection? If a small volume footprint limits low end response, would a bass-port or two offset this?

Second, I've read that pine makes for a fat, warm tone. I've also heard its unstable and subject to crack. Many seem to insist on 3/4" birch plywood. Does the material make a huge difference? And what about rigidity? Airtight? How do these factors impact cab performance?

Third, Im considering a closed back and a slant-back baffle. This combination might create punch and project sound....up to my ears rather than across the floor. Make sense? Does the slant-back baffle change the volume of the cab, or its resonant properties adversely?

And what about insulation?

I hope you find this discussion interesting enough to contribute. Thanks!!!

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BigJay's Custom '69 Kickassocaster
'90 Les Paul Standard "Vintage"
'00 MIJ '62 Tele RI
'76 Fender BandMaster Reverb
'71 Acoustic Control 2x12 w/Celestion V30s
'71 Martin D18
Mesa Mark IV
'65 Deluxe Reverb RI


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Post subject: Re: Building a 2x12 cab for my Bandmaster
Posted: Sun Sep 02, 2012 3:10 am
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Joined: Sun Nov 20, 2011 3:16 am
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BigJay wrote:
Hello.....I just purchased a couple 12" Celestion V30 speakers and now intend to build the perfect speaker cabinet to hold them. Trouble is that I dont know much about cabinet construction. So, I hope somebody out in guitar-nutjob land could offer some insight and advice, including pointing me toward good education and materials resources. Im building this cabinet to match my Bandmaster Reverb TFL5005d head. Its 45w RMS and 4ohm. I've played it through a Marshall 1966b with two Celestion 12T-75s and I've decided the cab is shrill sounding. I guess that means Im leaning toward a fatter, warmer tone. Im definitely into vintage tones. I play a vintage style Strat and a vintage style Les Paul. I'll use the cab for gigging. It needs to project sound out into the room but I need to hear it also. My 1966b is so directional that I often cant hear it as the sound travels across the floor. So, here are a few things Im curious about, that Im considering for this cabinet build. First, I prefer a small footprint, hopefully not significantly larger than my Bandmaster (25"w x 10"d x 13"d). How does the small volume cab impact tone and sound projection? If a small volume footprint limits low end response, would a bass-port or two offset this? Second, I've read that pine makes for a fat, warm tone. I've also heard its unstable and subject to crack. Many seem to insist on 3/4" birch plywood. Does the material make a huge difference? And what about rigidity? Airtight? How do these factors impact cab performance? Third, Im considering a closed back and a slant-back baffle. This combination might create punch and project sound....up to my ears rather than across the floor. Make sense? Does the slant-back baffle change the volume of the cab, or its resonant properties adversely? And what about insulation? I hope you find this discussion interesting enough to contribute. Thanks!!!





Hi, Big Jay! I've been studying amps, amp cabinets and speaker cabinets as well
My next project is to have some special designed speaker cabinets built and
purchase some normal cabinets with the normal common speaker porting.


Image

As you can see, I want to have fun with amp heads and various speakers and various
cabinet configurations. You are building yours. I'll purchase some pre-built cabinets
and will have approx five custom cabinets made.

Some things I've learned (others will share more options) is desire the open-back cabinets,
but will have all cabinets with the convertable option. Open backs fill a room better,
but closed backs are more frontward direct with the sound and may need to be mic'd
more frequently. Also, mic'ing open back cabinets will produce a different sound than
mic'ing the same cabinet but closed back. That is why you might consider convertables.

Also, since I will not make my cabinets, I did not note certain websites that answer all
your questions about wood, open/closed, electronics, tones, interior insulation, etc.

I do enjoy the slant-back option(s). Two-height speaker cabinets can
have both in slant-back or one straight-on and the top one(s) slanted-back.
Personally, I'll have single height speaker cabinets to be slant-back, as well.

Hope this helps. I've read threads from several forum members
who've built cabinets. Toppscore 8)

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Last edited by Toppscore on Sun Sep 02, 2012 12:04 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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Post subject: Re: Building a 2x12 cab for my Bandmaster
Posted: Sun Sep 02, 2012 9:38 am
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Do you have woodworking skills?

Tools?

A source for materials?

Experience working with grill cloth, fabric covering, and adhesives?

Unlike the bloviating dick diddler (above) who has no answers whatsoever for you, I actually build my own amp cabinets and speaker enclosures. I've built over a hundred (and sold many of them for premium prices).

Image

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Image

Image

Image

To answer your questions......

The Celestion V30's are a good fit for a 40- to 50-watt Fender platform. They perform their best in a bass-reflex (sealed-back) cab but are equally comfortable in a semi open-back enclosure. The bass-reflex type projects more directionally than the open-back or semi open-back type. If the cab is oriented vertically the stage footprint is reduced and sonic projection is enhanced.

Ports are generally used only in the instance of a bass enclosure, to "trick" the speakers into thinking the box has more interior volume than is actually the case. This ruse decreases the damping factor of the speakers and allows for the longer cone excursions necessary to reproduce low bass notes. Guitar cabs usually do not need such artifices.

The home-made Showman enclosures shown above offer about six cubic feet of interior volume which is near-ideal for a pair of 12-inch speakers. They offer plenty of full-range frequency response without the need for porting or fibreglass damping sheets (as was often used in Leo's original designs as made in the '60s).

Finger-joined solid pine planks create the lightest, strongest, and most resonant speaker enclosure for portable use with a guitar amp. Sufficiently kiln-dried, pine does not crack despite what you've read (I'd sure like to know what "egg-spurt" wrote that), as witnessed by the sheer number of vintage Fender amps that remain in existence.

I generally rely on standard Fender design specs and dimensions when building a cab, adapting them periodically to fulfill some custom requirement. Thus, standard vintage-spec hardware always fits and factory-spec covers can usually be found to protect the enclosure during transit or when not being used.

HTH

Arjay

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"Here's why reliability is job one: A great sounding amp that breaks down goes from being a favorite piece of gear to a useless piece of crap in less time than it takes to read this sentence." -- BRUCE ZINKY


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Post subject: Re: Building a 2x12 cab for my Bandmaster
Posted: Sun Sep 02, 2012 12:42 pm
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Retroverbial wrote:

Do you have woodworking skills? Tools? A source for materials?
Experience working with grill cloth, fabric covering, and adhesives?

Are you the real dummy that PudMan suggests? Don't put much weight into this egg squirtin's cupcake basket.
He will tell you all he knows, but checkout the particle board crumb below.
There're tons of other builders with miles of knowledge than the copied material presented.
Take what you will, but also get other reliable sources. Pudman is only one in a pile.


Retroverbial wrote:
Unlike the bloviating dick diddler (above) who has no answers whatsoever for you, I actually build my own amp cabinets and speaker enclosures. I've built over a hundred (and sold many of them for premium prices).

Notice the put-downs and self-build ups? Nothing lost here, at all.
Yeah, others have listened to this PudMan Manhandle his "bloviating diddler Dick Diddler" Pud.
Sold 100? Wake up Pudman, we're back in Kansas, Wake up! Get real.
Who has the time? ~ when you have`15000 comments in two years.
Only a dreamer. Pull pictures off the internet and display them - :lol: :lol: :lol:



Image


To answer your questions...... Or, I just need to BABBLE, duhhhhh????

The Celestion V30's are a good fit for a 40- to 50-watt Fender platform.
Well, duhhhhh???? Is this going to be a bit more challenging :?: :lol:

They perform their best in a bass-reflex (sealed-back) cab but are equally comfortable in a semi open-back enclosure.
Well, duhhhhh???? Where'd you copy this? Cab-101 :lol:

The bass-reflex type projects more directionally than the open-back or semi open-back type.
Well, duhhhhh????

If the cab is oriented vertically the stage footprint is reduced and sonic projection is enhanced.
Well, duhhhhh????


Ports are generally used only in the instance of a bass enclosure, to "trick" the speakers into thinking the box has more interior volume than is actually the case. Guitar cabs usually do not need such artifices.
Well, duhhhhh???? Share how many ports
Fender's 1960s 2x10 & 2x12 guitiar amp head cabs have :lol: :lol: :lol:


The home-made Showman enclosures shown above offer about six cubic feet
of interior volume which is near-ideal for a pair of 12-inch speakers.
Who made up "near ideal" :? Well, duhhhhh????

Finger-joined solid pine planks create the lightest, strongest, and most resonant speaker enclosure for portable use with a guitar amp. Sufficiently kiln-dried, pine does not crack despite what you've read (I'd sure like to know what "egg-spurt" wrote that), as witnessed by the sheer number of vintage Fender amps that remain in existence.
Well, duhhhhh???? Another bunch of copied Babble.
Sufficiently kiln dried anything will do everything,
as witnessed by the billions of pieces of pine still not cracked :lol:


I generally rely on standard Fender design specs and dimensions when building a cab, adapting them periodically to fulfill some custom requirement. Thus, standard vintage-spec hardware always fits and factory-spec covers can usually be found to protect the enclosure during transit or when not being used.
"I generally relay on the greatest builder of amps & cabinets" :lol:
Well, duhhhhh???? Who doesn't? Great input. Too many Internet sources to give credit to. :?
Thus, it will generally work if you copy from the best :lol: Well, duhhhh???


Real heavy duty specs and original content . . . . yeah, right.
To busy "bloviating his dick diddler'in egg squirtin' pud
to offer some real good advice.

Big Jay, here is to getting some helpful input and ideas here
in this wonderful forum and on the internet. Lots of schematics
and designs everywhere. Take care. Toppscore 8)

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Post subject: Re: Building a 2x12 cab for my Bandmaster
Posted: Sun Sep 02, 2012 1:04 pm
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Toppscore wrote:
Take what you will, but also get other reliable sources. Pudman is only one in a pile.


None of those "sources" will be you, smegma-for-brains.

I offer answers and advice based on practical experience.

You couldn't build a decent set of hemorrhoids.

:lol:

Arjay

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Post subject: Re: Building a 2x12 cab for my Bandmaster
Posted: Sun Sep 02, 2012 4:33 pm
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Nice burn :lol: :lol: :lol:
I was entertaining a cabinet build myself, until my buddy at work said he had an empty vox 2x12 cabinet in his garage, and I could have it. Arjay do you have a speaker suggestion to go along with those heads I just got?

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Post subject: Re: Building a 2x12 cab for my Bandmaster
Posted: Sun Sep 02, 2012 4:50 pm
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AL...I agree great burn. Of course Arjay was shooting fish in a barrel on that one! As for speakers for the Bassman and Bandmaster...If you can't find a good pair of Vintage Jensen C12N's then I might also suggest Kendrick Blackframe 12's. They are a bit higher in price than some, but they have excellent tone to go with vintage Fender amps. Of course this is all personal taste when it comes to speakers.

HTH

T2

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Post subject: Re: Building a 2x12 cab for my Bandmaster
Posted: Sun Sep 02, 2012 6:06 pm
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Haven't come across any Jensens but I always have an eye open. I find a lot of greenbacks, celestion vintage 30's, and eminence from time to time, but hey the search is half the fun!

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Post subject: Re: Building a 2x12 cab for my Bandmaster
Posted: Sun Sep 02, 2012 6:28 pm
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Arnold Layne wrote:
Haven't come across any Jensens but I always have an eye open. I find a lot of greenbacks, celestion vintage 30's, and eminence from time to time, but hey the search is half the fun!


+1

There's nothing wrong with G12Ms or V30's. In fact I just sold a '66 Bandmaster today, with a Showman cab stuffed with a pair of Celestions. The British-made editions sound great with virtually any vintage Fender head. T2's got some great suggestions as well. Keep your eyes peeled for any speaker deals you might encounter.

8)

Arjay

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Post subject: Re: Building a 2x12 cab for my Bandmaster
Posted: Mon Sep 03, 2012 12:52 am
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" He will tell you all he knows, but checkout the particle board crumb below. "


Topp, unless I misunderstood you, there is an advantage to using particle board to mount the speakers in a cab. Esp on forward face.

http://www.gearslutz.com/board/low-end- ... df-no.html

Really, isn't there several ways to build the wheel? Setting aside emotional investments? :mrgreen:


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Post subject: Re: Building a 2x12 cab for my Bandmaster
Posted: Mon Sep 03, 2012 2:52 am
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BMW2002Ti wrote:
" He will tell you all he knows, but checkout the particle board crumb below. " Topp, unless I misunderstood you, there is an advantage to using particle board to mount the speakers in a cab. Esp on forward face. http://www.gearslutz.com/board/low-end- ... df-no.html
Really, isn't there several ways to build the wheel? Setting aside emotional investments? :mrgreen:




=========================
Thanks, BMW. Good thread link share. Thanks.
Yet if I read it correctly, seems MDF particle board is in equal preference
with plywood. I cannot tell the difference in sounds from various woods,
yet, as all of my cabs are what they are. I do not believe there are
MDF baffle boards in my line up, unless my Bruce Zinky/Paul Rivera amps have
MDF. Also, my modern amps . . . . I wonder. Darn, now MDF is on my thoughts.

But, when I buy and have some custom cabinets built,
I’ll keep an eye on the baffle board material. Thanks to this thread :)




My personal problem with MDF particle board is that MDF
is simply cheap glued sawdust = lousy cruddy material.
EVERYTHING MDF WARPS, CRUMBLES,
Breaks Off in Chunks. MDF is a timebomb for disaster.

My issue is quality, durability and resale-ability ~ NOT tone.

I've seen numerous famous pictures of cracked front baffles with heavy 1x15
or 2x12 speakers falling off. As well, speaker cabinet photos with the grill
removed exposing a large MDF crack from the speaker hole to an outside edge.
I bought one that was repaired. I bought another that was replaced with plywood.


Thanks to this thread, I’m totally reminded to make sure I never purchase
a vintage amp with particle board. Not sure what year Fender began using
MFD, but are not the 1970s/1980s Fender amps filled with horror stories
regarding 1x15 & 2x12 heavy combo amps falling apart?

My two bits =
Quality & Durability & Strength = NO MDF Particle Board ALLOWED
I hope the OP Big Jay reads this.



As far as testing, I’ll have speaker cabinets designed for quick access, easy installation
and easy removal for speaker changes. Did I say, EASY :?: :?: :?: :?:
I’ll definitely be able to attain desirable speaker cabinet design,
then "plug-in & play-with" until the tone is right.

Love this tread . . . .
Exactly in my plans Will be posting project results. Later this Winter.
Toppscore :)

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Post subject: Re: Building a 2x12 cab for my Bandmaster
Posted: Mon Sep 03, 2012 3:48 am
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Topp, You know a lot of famous speakers are made with MDF. Like the JBL 100. Proper gluing, veneering, and corner supports (often on inside of cab, for ascetic reasons)--- can lead to a long life.

Granted a home stereo speaker is not move about like a guitar cab, but I have a set of JBL studio monitors that have withstood a ton of travel for over 30 years.

One very bad thing about MDF --- weight.

One bad thing (perhaps) about solid wood --- no two amps are going to sound alike.


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Post subject: Re: Building a 2x12 cab for my Bandmaster
Posted: Mon Sep 03, 2012 4:20 am
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BMW2002Ti wrote:
Topp, You know a lot of famous speakers are made with MDF. Like the JBL 100. Proper gluing, veneering, and corner supports (often on inside of cab, for ascetic reasons)--- can lead to a long life Granted a home stereo speaker is not move about like a guitar cab, but I have a set of JBL studio monitors that have withstood a ton of travel for over 30 years. One very bad thing about MDF --- weight. One bad thing (perhaps) about solid wood --- no two amps are going to sound alike.



Beam's ~ All is noted. Thanks
Let me ask you ThIS AbOUT ThAT :lol:

No two amps or speakers sound alike, anyway. Right?


THERE IS NO POLYANNA in TONEVILLE or SOUNDCITY :!: :!: :!:



It's all imagination.
It's what Father Axe & Mother Amp WANT YOU TO THINK :shock:



Another Toppscore "Comment of TRUTH":
Sounding alike or matched or similar is not necessarily desirable.
Tone is GOOD :!: Unique is BETTER :shock: Different is DESIRED :D Less is MORE :mrgreen:

Believe me, MOST CANNOT HANDLE THE TRUTH :shock: :shock:

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Post subject: Re: Building a 2x12 cab for my Bandmaster
Posted: Mon Sep 03, 2012 5:43 am
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Retroverbial wrote:
Image

Image



That is just gorgeous work. The quality of the wood is fantastic. What grade are you using?

I know some cabinet-makers/furniture makers that would be put to shame by your work.

Unfortunately our education system seems hell bent on getting rid of industrial art classes in high schools. I just don't know if the craft will be kept alive. The best woodworkers (cabinet-makers) around here are a couple German Baptist fellows and a German immigrant. They do custom millwork on my projects.


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Post subject: Re: Building a 2x12 cab for my Bandmaster
Posted: Mon Sep 03, 2012 6:55 am
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Toppscore wrote:
BMW2002Ti wrote:
" He will tell you all he knows, but checkout the particle board crumb below. " Topp, unless I misunderstood you, there is an advantage to using particle board to mount the speakers in a cab. Esp on forward face. http://www.gearslutz.com/board/low-end- ... df-no.html
Really, isn't there several ways to build the wheel? Setting aside emotional investments? :mrgreen:




=========================
Thanks, BMW. Good thread link share. Thanks.
Yet if I read it correctly, seems MDF particle board is in equal preference
with plywood. I cannot tell the difference in sounds from various woods,
yet, as all of my cabs are what they are. I do not believe there are
MDF baffle boards in my line up, unless my Bruce Zinky/Paul Rivera amps have
MDF. Also, my modern amps . . . . I wonder. Darn, now MDF is on my thoughts.


Quote:
My personal problem with MDF particle board is that MDF
is simply cheap glued sawdust = lousy cruddy material.
EVERYTHING MDF WARPS, CRUMBLES,
Breaks Off in Chunks. MDF is a timebomb for disaster.

My issue is quality, durability and resale-ability ~ NOT tone.

[b]So your not after tone? Then why build several different cabs with different configs...you Topp are just a Wanker!


Quote:
Thanks to this thread, I’m totally reminded to make sure I never purchase
a vintage amp with particle board. Not sure what year Fender began using
MFD, but are not the 1970s/1980s Fender amps filled with horror stories
regarding 1x15 & 2x12 heavy combo amps falling apart?


Ummm..my 66 Basman Cab has an MDF baffle board. It has two heavy Jensen C12N's in it and has had no issues period...of course it is just a cheap Vintage Fender cab.
Quote:
My two bits =
Quality & Durability & Strength = NO MDF Particle Board ALLOWED
I hope the OP Big Jay reads this.


OP Big Jay, ignore this idiot, he KNOWS nothing but what he may or may not have read...no real experience using the materials in question!

Quote:
I’ll definitely be able to attain desirable speaker cabinet design,
then "plug-in & play-with" until the tone is right.


WTF Again? I thought you weren't after TONE...make up your mind and don't post this tripe!

Quote:
Love this tread . . . .


WTF You love it but only if you can talk bad about someone as you know nothing of this subject..OP if you doubt Topps credentials here, just read some of his dumbazz posts!

Arjay KNOWS what he is talking aobut, he walked me through replacing a baffle on my 69 Bantam (you can do a search if you like as I did a build documentation of if here) and I used MDF, good Quality stuff and strong, but as Beemer stated a bit heavy, but since I was replacing MDF you wouldn't know it to lift the amp.

FWIW

T2

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