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Post subject: Re: C
Posted: Tue Jun 26, 2012 7:26 pm
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T2Stratman wrote:
Ark, you were VERY CLEAR the first time...it's just ol "Swingtime..a.k.a...Toppscore" only posts here to have something to do to fill up his obviously lonely existance. Reading his posts can give you whiplash, he is all over the place...not much coherancy within his posts. I am beginning to wonder if he even owns anything vintage, I have seen him post a bunch of pictures off of Ebay, but not once have we seen his whole collection in one shot...so I have decided to NOT reply to anything he posts...even if he responds to this one, which I am sure he will...but unless it is a pic of all of his gear in one PIC I will continue to ignore the troll. I politely suggest you do the same :wink: T2

Not a good post, T2S.

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Post subject: Re: Watch for False Claims as NOT ALL Vintage Amps are GREAT
Posted: Tue Jun 26, 2012 7:51 pm
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I truly have finished this thread. Enough for me.
Point is obvious there are bad advertisers
and they affect many many aspects of our hobby.

I want to thank ten or more forum memebers who
have commented in ways that forwarded this thread.
Aaron K
Amerigo
aclempoppi
Guitarist1983
tyronne
BMW2002Ti
Shimmilou
BMW2002Ti
nedorama
mxvin
They may have agreed or disagreed or shared experiences,
which is the point of a discussion forum, ~ the ability to express ideas.

But, the thread was overly dominated by a few five forum members
who try to get their ideas and opinions to be a certain way,
certainly making it no fun for others.

My part of the thread has ended, as it is clear what's written.
Take care. Gotta go practice. Toppscore :)

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Post subject: Re: Watch for False Claims as NOT ALL Vintage Amps are GREAT
Posted: Tue Jun 26, 2012 10:48 pm
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Location: Perth, Australia
Hi Toppscore

I truly believe your origional post is a valid point, and I am behind you all the way on that, it is just unfortunate that some of the vintage amp owners in this forum did not read or understand you and somehow thought you were mounting a personal attack on them, which you clearly were not doing, (that being said, maybe some of those vintage amp owners take it so personally because they are those type of people that hype their gear to get higher selling prices or some wierd form of confirmation that their choice in amp is the best). I know there are some really decent vintage amp owners here on this Forum that have some really cool vintage gear and alot of cool knowledge to share.

If I was in the market for a real vintage amp I would DEFINATELY pay attention to your caution on "FALSE, HYPED UP CLAIMS!". So Toppscore lets settle this once and for all. You have been called out on the amps that you own, which has been used as a means to invalidate this post. Please silence the "Angry Gods" and post a pic of all your amps together and lets be DONE WITH IT!

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Post subject: Re: Watch for False Claims as NOT ALL Vintage Amps are GREAT
Posted: Wed Jun 27, 2012 12:13 am
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Hi Toppscore

Some people have a long tail, you can easily step on it. I think you made a valid point and I liked the discussion. Maybe it helps if you also see that some of the people you mentioned are exactly the ones that help everybody here fix their vintage amps if something is kaput.

My vintage Princeton was pretty much screwed up when I got it. Thanks to Arjay, it's now a perfect amp.

Cheers

David

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Post subject: Re: Watch for False Claims as NOT ALL Vintage Amps are GREAT
Posted: Wed Jun 27, 2012 1:19 am
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Whooa! Somekind of wild ride!!! Maybe concise questions and examples could relieve the the lengthy posts. Can't see the necessity for such extensions. JMO Art

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Post subject: Re: Watch for False Claims as NOT ALL Vintage Amps are GREAT
Posted: Wed Jun 27, 2012 7:38 am
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Surely not ALL vintage gear is amazing, but in the spirit of "not everything that glitters is gold," I've had numerous problems with modern Fenders, enough that

In my experience, nearly all modern Fenders I've spent some time with required some minor, non-invasive surgery to really sound GREAT. My main issue is with the stock speakers which tend to have some harsh harsh upper mids/highs. I played a 65 Twin RI with this problem, a 65 DRRI (actually had to turn the treble to ZERO to get a balanced sound I was happy with), a Hot Rod 4x10 Deville, a Bassman... They do sound good except for that uncomfortable harshness. In the case of the Deluxe or the Twin, paying $100-200 for good speakers seems reasonable, but shelling out to upgrade a Deville or a Bassman... what's the point? The only modern Fenders I've played that were 'just right' all-stock were a 2x12 Hot Rod -- or the Custom Shop models, which are so so expensive.


As for reliability, I owned that Hot Rod Deville 4x10. I was never able to play it with the volume above 6, yet in under 2 years a speaker blew out, and the distortion channel turned to mud.

I have not been fortunate enough to own a vintage Fender (yet... soon my friends, very very soon, end of July :D ) but of the handful I've played, most sounded PERFECT with the stock, 50 year old speakers that were included-- Super Reverb (probably my favorite), Tremolux, Bandmaster, 80s "The Twin," just fantastic tone all of them. Though I can't speak on their reliability. And most cost roughly the same as a new Fender.

The one exception was a 1970s Twin, but the problem there was the really ugly preamp distortion, likely a result of the circuit changes made in the 70s.

So in my (admittedly limited) experience, it's Modern: 1 out of 5 amps were great with all stock parts, Vintage: 4 out of 5 amps were great with all stock parts.

That's just been my experience.


There is definitely a difference to the sound as well, though that's just a matter of preference. Vintage tends to have a more pristine natural beauty. Moderns sound more beefed up which is good too.


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Post subject: Re: Watch for False Claims as NOT ALL Vintage Amps are GREAT
Posted: Wed Jun 27, 2012 8:42 am
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" My main issue is with the stock speakers which tend to have some harsh harsh upper mids/highs. "

Daniel, we could "talk" all day about this issue. My experience is the tone-shaping of many newer amps is not really done to same lengths or consistency that the older, vintage amps were done to. Plate voltages and idle bias settings wrt the specific brand, era, manufacturer of the 12AX7's used is not quite as well done.

You know, when RCA (in the Golden Era of vacuum tubes) made a 12AX7 it had that reliable "RCA" tone. Nearly every single one of the millions which were made could be counted on similar tone and response to transients. So, it was a whole lot easier to shape the front end to get the tone & OD you wanted. Today's various manufacturer's 12AX7 vary all over the place (in terms of tonal response). So one circuit fits all doesn't work quite as well (IMHO). Esp if that circuit is based on old school Fender circuitry of 50-60 years ago, when all Fender used were RCA 12AX7 (7025). And a good percentage of an amp's tonal character comes from the front end's response (input, tone stack, EFX, and PI).

If you play with the plate voltages, idle bias, and local/global feedback on the front end sections, you can get close to the vintage tone and amp's response. Coupled with a speaker built to old school specs--- it gets closer. Kinda like you become the "Custom Shop" option.

A real good example of modern amps done right are Matchless. A whole lotta of care was taken (esp in Mark Sampson era) in the components used and the proper setup---and test driving each model to tone shape. Expensive as heck these days, but this definitely lead to consistent results. Like Trainwrecks.


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Post subject: Re: Watch for False Claims as NOT ALL Vintage Amps are GREAT
Posted: Wed Jun 27, 2012 10:16 am
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Same as Dr. Z. I went to their shop to see them hand building amps, 1 at a time. Final QC involved playing through the amp, and then while it was plugged in, a guy taking a rubber mallet to the amp and smacking it repeatedly to ensure everything was as it was supposed to be.

Now that's a job!

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Post subject: Re: Watch for False Claims as NOT ALL Vintage Amps are GREAT
Posted: Wed Jun 27, 2012 10:27 am
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Beemer makes a great point here.

Vintage isn't about age per se. Just because something is 25 years old doesn't make it vintage. I think most serious guitar/amp collectors and players understand that vintage is based on a time period between 1920-1980 when production qualities and material qualities were at their highest. The slide probably starting in the 1970's and reaching bottom in the early to mid 1980's.

The RCA tubes being a prime example. Would you prefer to have an original set of RCA's or Mullard's in your amp or some Chinese knock-off.

AlNiCo Speakers are another. Due to a nuclear regulitory rules set in place in 1962, the Alnico formula was changed and the Colbalt was subbed with a differrent metal, but they kept the 'CO' elemental symbol for colbalt (al'ni'CO in the name as not draw attention to the change of magnets component materials.) This is why 1956 Jensens are so revered, they had the old formula AlNiCo.

Cabinet construction is another. Finger-jointed pine boards provide a different tonal quality than say particle board or plywood. Plywood will certainly resonate, but much differently than a solid board. (I remember reading Fender was making a new Pro Jr. for Jeff Beck in their custom shop and he didn't like the tone.... they finally found some aged pine boards and built the cabinet using the old lumber.)

Guitars...... think a single slab of mahogany or multiple pieces of finger-jointed sticks. Which will resonate better? I've seen newer Gibson's with 3 and 4 pieces glued together to make the body! Some of that isn't necessarily the fault of the manufacturers, but more about modern concerns of sustainability.... and actually being able to find a piece of old-growth lumber that you can use. Let's remember that tone woods get better with age. Adhesives will affect how wood ages.


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Post subject: Re: Watch for False Claims as NOT ALL Vintage Amps are GREAT
Posted: Wed Jun 27, 2012 12:00 pm
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nedorama wrote:
Same as Dr. Z. I went to their shop to see them hand building amps, 1 at a time. Final QC involved playing through the amp, and then while it was plugged in, a guy taking a rubber mallet to the amp and smacking it repeatedly to ensure everything was as it was supposed to be.

Now that's a job!


That reminds me of an old video I saw of a TV manufacturing facility in Japan where the TV's were fired up on a moving assembly line. The vid had a woman with a rubber mallet smacking the new TV's on the top and sides to see if any loose connections were inside. I sometimes find problems this way with the o-scopes I work on. There is nothing quite as fun as looking for intermittent problems that go away when the product is shipped in for repair. :?

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Post subject: Re: Watch for False Claims as NOT ALL Vintage Amps are GREAT
Posted: Wed Jun 27, 2012 1:01 pm
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Arc-n-spark wrote:
nedorama wrote:
Same as Dr. Z. I went to their shop to see them hand building amps, 1 at a time. Final QC involved playing through the amp, and then while it was plugged in, a guy taking a rubber mallet to the amp and smacking it repeatedly to ensure everything was as it was supposed to be.

Now that's a job!


That reminds me of an old video I saw of a TV manufacturing facility in Japan where the TV's were fired up on a moving assembly line. The vid had a woman with a rubber mallet smacking the new TV's on the top and sides to see if any loose connections were inside. I sometimes find problems this way with the o-scopes I work on. There is nothing quite as fun as looking for intermittent problems that go away when the product is shipped in for repair. :?



Argh!!!!!!!!!!!! :(
Intermittent problems are the worst thing that can happen in any technology. HW or SW.

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Post subject: Re: Watch for False Claims as NOT ALL Vintage Amps are GREAT
Posted: Wed Jun 27, 2012 2:02 pm
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Funny you should bring up TV QA/QC. I was just talking to a friend that has vintage guitar amps as well as some modern boutique amps.

He said tube TV's were notorious for being hinky. Esp 1960's moderate to high priced color ones. Whereas the old tube guitar amps (esp US made ones) were and still are rock solid. Now, today the opposite seems true.

Flat screens are rock solid and the moderate priced tube guitar amps... well...

My 1962 Pro is a crazy amp. I can leave that thing sitting, off for weeks, at the same dial points. Turn the darn thing on, let it warm for 10-15 minutes--- and darn it if the amp responds exactly like it did four weeks ago. I mean it's a 50 year old amp.

Actually, I haven't had any issues with any of my Fender amps, in terms of QA --- even the woodies or my 1997 reissued Twin Reverb. One thing I did do to the RI (and have done to every DRRI and TRRI I've worked on)--- is replace the PS caps with Sprague Atoms, Panasonics or F&T's. Once done & re-biased with good tubes, reliability hasn't been an issue. Oh, I did go to JBL speakers on the TRRI. Monster tone.

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