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Post subject: Vintage Champ or Vibro Champ???
Posted: Wed Jun 20, 2012 2:57 am
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Hi Guys

You may have seen my other posts regarding a Princeton reissue that I wanted but it was too loud for bedroom/practice levels. I bought a Vox ac4tv as a stand in amp and I really like it but I want a fender so I then thought about a champion 600 with the help of bluesky636.

I now fancy the idea a vintage fender amp and I have around £500 ($786) to spend. I have narrowed it down from advice and reading other threads on here to either a champ or vibro champ. Now being in the UK it seems that we have to spend a lot more for the vintage amps than you guys in the US (BOOOOOO :D) More of them I guess, but I was wondering if I could pick your brains on:

- Things to look out for
- I've found a champ and vibro champ in Denmark Street, London, for £399 and £499 - is this a fair price?
- Should I consider buying one for home use and in a flat with thin walls?
- Anything else you thing need to know

I really have an urge to get one but I'm worried as it is a vintage amp and could die on me. I've found a 64 Blackface for £699 ($1099) that is tempting me but its two hundred more than I wanted to spend.

These ones are on ebay at the moment that I am watching any views would be appreciated.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/200777858259? ... 500wt_1165
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Vintage-1970s ... _500wt_931
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Fender-Champ- ... 682wt_1148
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/1970s-Fender- ... 500wt_1165

Thanks in advance.

Tom

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Post subject: Re: Vintage Champ or Vibro Champ???
Posted: Wed Jun 20, 2012 5:38 am
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I collect only smaller watt amps. I got into them because the other amps I had were just too loud for the house. And keeping peace is always a good thing. So getting a Champ or Vibro should address your concerns about playing at home or a flat. But to be fair, even at 5 watts, the Champs can get loud.

The modern Champion 600 is an okay amp. I have one and I like it. It might be an inexpensive path to get a small watt Fender tube amp. But I prefer my Vintage Champs. You get a bit more control on tone with the BF and SF champs. The 600 is supposed to be a modified version of the original 1940's Champ 600. People will tell you they sound like a silverface Champ.....let me assure you.... they sound nothing like a silverface Champ amp. The design might be similar, but the lack of tone control and speaker size doesn't allow that to happen. My 600 can get crunchy. But then I put some old RCA tubes in it and pulled off the baby blanket they used as a speaker cloth. Other than some simple modes, I won't put $150 worth of modes into a $150 Chinese amp. But that's me. :D

Just play your guitar using your cords through the amp. Does it sound good? Test the pots. Do they actually work? (Does the amp change tone and volume when you turn the dials). Does the speaker look to be original? There isn't any miscellaneous holes that should not be in the amp?

I recommend you read "11 Things You Have to Know About Purchasing Vintage Amps." it really helped me get started.

The Conversion rate on the costs you listed is $625 - $782 American. That seems high for a Champ amp, but as you said, we Yanks are a bit spoiled when it comes to price. A Silverface Champ or Vibro Champ would go for between $300-$450 here in the States. You can get them for less. Remember..... there is the asking price and the selling price. Don't be intimidated. Make an offer.


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Post subject: Re: Vintage Champ or Vibro Champ???
Posted: Wed Jun 20, 2012 6:17 am
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A VC will have a slightly different (and I think better) tone than a Champ--- even with the Vibrato/Tremolo off. Due to the extra 12AX7. Like Phanford said, a much wider range of tone. Plus, a slightly sooner OD. The Bronco is another good one to hunt after. It's basically a SF VC.


http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Vintage-1970s ... 4604150aea


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Post subject: Re: Vintage Champ or Vibro Champ???
Posted: Wed Jun 20, 2012 6:51 am
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Thanks guys that's really, really helpful information. I'll take a proper look over it all when I get home from work tonight. I really appreciate your comments. The 11 things you have to know... link looks fantastic - just what I need.

I think I'll go and try them out in London and play them for a long time to see if I want to buy one. A/B them as well to hear the differences in tone.

I hear what your saying about loud - My vox ac4tv tube amp is super loud on the 4 watt setting probably too much but I just have that real urge to buy a fender amp whether its a reissue 57 champ if I can find one or the real deal vintage champ/vibro champ.

Shame they are cheaper on your side of the shore.

Still we always seem to pay more in the UK whether its televisions, ipads or game consoles.

Such is life.

Cheers guys

Tom

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Post subject: Re: Vintage Champ or Vibro Champ???
Posted: Wed Jun 20, 2012 12:20 pm
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They are a lot cheaper on this side of the pond. You might want to look into bidding on the ebay.com site as many sellers will ship to Great Britain.

The amp is small and light enough it that it might be worth it to ship it to you. Taxes and duty though might make it more expensive and you will need some kind of step up device to run on your 220 system. There is simply far more choice over here when it comes to Fenders. Marshall and Vox amps are cheaper in your area...


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Post subject: Re: Vintage Champ or Vibro Champ???
Posted: Sat Jun 23, 2012 6:45 am
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Tom - Hopefully you get out to test drive some vintage Champs this weekend. Looking forward to hearing how things turn out. When you get one - Post photos! :D


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Post subject: Re: Vintage Champ or Vibro Champ???
Posted: Sun Jun 24, 2012 8:38 am
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phansford wrote:
Tom - Hopefully you get out to test drive some vintage Champs this weekend. Looking forward to hearing how things turn out. When you get one - Post photos! :D


Hi phansford

Unfortunately I've not been able to get down there this weekend because my daughter had her christening today. I was hoping to !@$ out yesterday but the planning took a while. I got lots of frowns when I suggested I go.

I'm going to have the day off tomorrow and whiz into London. It's a shame that I got my guitar in Denmark street because its an hour away from me. But it was the only guitar that was the one from all the teles I tried. I hope the replacement from fender is as good as it! Fender have been great.

I'm looking forward to trying a vintage amp, would really like a tweed champ but they are some serious money

I can't wait to see what's in the shop! I guess that's the one good thing about it being in London.

Take it easy and hope the weekends been good.

Tom

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Post subject: Re: Vintage Champ or Vibro Champ???
Posted: Sun Jun 24, 2012 10:28 am
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BassettsAllSorts wrote:

Unfortunately I've not been able to get down there this weekend because my daughter had her christening today. I was hoping to !@$ out yesterday but the planning took a while. I got lots of frowns when I suggested I go.


:lol: Yeah - I can imagine that didn't go over well. :lol:

But family first and congrats on your daughter's christening. :D


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Post subject: Re: Vintage Champ or Vibro Champ???
Posted: Sun Jun 24, 2012 11:39 am
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phansford wrote:
BassettsAllSorts wrote:

Unfortunately I've not been able to get down there this weekend because my daughter had her christening today. I was hoping to !@$ out yesterday but the planning took a while. I got lots of frowns when I suggested I go.


:lol: Yeah - I can imagine that didn't go over well. :lol:

But family first and congrats on your daughter's christening. :D


Thanks very much.

I'll let you know how I get on I'm going to go on Tuesday I think

Tom

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Post subject: Re: Vintage Champ or Vibro Champ???
Posted: Tue Jun 26, 2012 2:33 pm
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Hi guys

A little update about the trip into London today.

I went in to pick up my replacement USA Deluxe Telecaster from Central London and whilst I was in there I saw an Ec Vibro Champ so I thought why not test the new guitar out on it to see how a hand wired USA guitar sounded. I was impressed and loved the hi/low switch. From my little play on it I got some good tones but there was not enough time to really explore it. Still I really like it and thought the tweed looked great. Over here an original costs around a grand so it would be a cheaper option. I was originally looking for the previous 57 reissue but there are none in the UK or ebay etc (Well none that I could find).

Anyway onto the vintage amps...well one as it turned out. The shop had sold the champ that was in stock and only had the vibro champ left. I was a bit disappointed but thought at least I can try one out on this trip. It was a 1973 silverface vibro champ.

I plugged in set everything to 0 and turned up slowly checking for noises etc the speed and intensity pots made static noises and the guy said that they probably needed cleaning which he would do. The clean sound was unbelievable I couldn't believe my ears. I must admit that I had a big smile on my face. The Vibrato was smooth and worked perfectly. The one thing that didn't happen was the breakup as I turned it up. From 0 - 3 there was hardly any sound and on 10 with the guitar turned up full it was still clean with not much breakup at all. I like the clean tone but was hoping for the breakup I had been reading about. It had a mod that when you plug a lead in the back it goes into a tweed like circuit which was interesting and a big jump in volume but I really wanted an original stock amp.

For £499 with the option of £25 off I just wasn't convinced. The cloth had seen better days too. It is available on ebay so I will post the link so that you can see it.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Vintage-1970s ... 500wt_1054

Interestingly its more on ebay.

I figure that I will follow ebay auctions and hopefully pick up one that's original and in line with USA prices. Or failing that my folks are heading out to the states in September so I might sweet talk them into picking me up a tweed or vibro champ original and getting it back for me.

Anyway enough of my ramblings I'll keep my eye out and see what I can find.

Tom

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Post subject: Re: Vintage Champ or Vibro Champ???
Posted: Tue Jun 26, 2012 2:52 pm
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BassettsAllSorts wrote:
For £499 with the option of £25 off I just wasn't convinced. The cloth had seen better days too. It is available on ebay so I will post the link so that you can see it.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Vintage-1970s ... 500wt_1054

Interestingly its more on ebay.


I am going to guess its higher on ebay to cover shipping costs, ebay costs, and paypay costs. You shouldn't feel inhibited in making an offer. :D

Concerning tone - the tweed amps are much darker and cruncher than the BF and SF Champs. Which is probably what you heard from the tweed EC Vibro.

To get some crunch, I set my bass a bit heavier (8) than treble (6) on my '73 Vibro Champ and it will start to crunch a bit around 6 or 7.

However, I changed the speaker and that does make some difference. I have a Weber ceramic (Vintage Series 8F125-0) in mine. The amp had came with a period correct speaker, but it wasn't original. The Weber is crunchy and has an early break-up.

Guys like Retroverbial and BMW202Ti can talk to you about the tweed mods on the VC you linked. They really know the technical side. :D

Image


Image


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Post subject: Re: Vintage Champ or Vibro Champ???
Posted: Tue Jun 26, 2012 3:08 pm
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phansford wrote:
Well - the tweed amps are much darker and cruncher than the BF and SF Champs. Which is probably what you heard from the tweed EC Vibro.

To get some crunch, I set my bass a bit heavier (8) than treble (6) on my '73 Vibro Champ and it will start to crunch a bit around 6 or 7.

However, I changed the speaker and that does make some difference. I have a Weber ceramic (Vintage Series 8F125-0) in mine. The amp had came with a period correct speaker, but it wasn't original. The Weber is crunchy and has an early break-up.

Guys like Retroverbial and BMW202Ti can talk to you about the tweed mods on the VC you linked. They really know the technical side. :D

Image


Image


That amp looks great I could look at peoples amps and guitars all day long! I'm a little green with envy. :D

Thanks for the info, just thinking about the sound that came out of it makes me want to roar out and buy it. I don't think I had enough time for the demo but I did like it very much. A guy came in and was trying out guitars on other amps and the shop was so small that it was hard to do a proper demo.

There are plenty out there I just need to find the gem!

The fun is in the trying!

Tom

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Post subject: Re: Vintage Champ or Vibro Champ???
Posted: Tue Jun 26, 2012 6:20 pm
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The VC sits in my office. I play it nearly every day either at lunch or the end of the day.

It must have had a rough life before it came to me. It has been recovered. The volume pot needed replaced. The OEM Oxford speaker was anemic. I paid $250 for it. I put about $50 in repairs and $70 in the new Weber speaker. I sold the old Oxford speaker for $40, so I am only into the amp for $330 (about £211). :D

I would take this amp over a modern amp any day. I have owned a Hot Rod Deluxe, a Vibro Champ XD, and a Vox Valvetronix. The HRDX went from zero to ear-splitting and was not suited for home playing. To my ears, the two modeling amps didn't come close to the vintage amps when played side-by-side.

I think you'll be happy and will not regret pulling the trigger on a vintage Champ. Here's my 1966 BF Champ. I took it and $100 in trade for the HRDX. I think I got the best end of the deal on that one. :lol: This one is as clean and original as can be. I've only changed the plug to a grounded three prong.

Image


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Post subject: Re: Vintage Champ or Vibro Champ???
Posted: Tue Jun 26, 2012 6:23 pm
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phansford wrote:
The VC sits in my office. I play it nearly every day either at lunch or the end of the day.

It must have had a rough life before it came to me. It has been recovered. The volume pot needed replaced. The OEM Oxford speaker was anemic. I paid $250 for it. I put about $50 in repairs and $70 in the new Weber speaker. I sold the old Oxford speaker for $40, so I am only into the amp for $330 (about £211). :D

I would take this amp over a modern amp any day. I have owned a Hot Rod Deluxe, a Vibro Champ XD, and a Vox Valvetronix. The HRDX went from zero to ear-splitting and was not suited for home playing. To my ears, the two modeling amps didn't come close to the vintage amps when played side-by-side.

I think you'll be happy and will not regret pulling the trigger on a vintage Champ. Here's my 1966 BF Champ. I took it and $100 in trade for the HRDX. I think I got the best end of the deal on that one. :lol: This one is as clean and original as can be. I've only changed the plug to a grounded three prong.

Image


SHAweeet! Now get yourself a guitar stand. :mrgreen:

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Post subject: Re: Vintage Champ or Vibro Champ???
Posted: Tue Jun 26, 2012 7:39 pm
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Arc-n-spark wrote:
SHAweeet! Now get yourself a guitar stand. :mrgreen:


:lol: Yeah... I have a few,but I need a few more. :lol:


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