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Post subject: Re: New Amp Day * 1984 Twin Reverb II Amp Head * Need some h
Posted: Wed Jun 20, 2012 4:59 am
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Arc-n-spark wrote:
I think it's important here to mention that every amp that I know of is hand wired. I have not seen a machine yet that can install a line cord or wire up a tube socket or a speaker.

Terminology is important in order for all to have an educated understanding of what each of us is talking about. Although many terms can be used for the same thing, that doesn't mean many terms are or could be used for all things. For instance, and this is merely an example, not all printed circuit boards are green so to refer to a circuit board as a green board could be misleading but to call it a green circuit board clears up any misunderstanding. Point to point assembly and hand wiring are two separate sets of terms for different operations and can be misleading if used improperly.

I also have to tip my hat to the many knowledgeable members here who know what they are talking about. The amount of helpfulness and willingness to share knowledge by these members is why I am a member here.


+1000, Arc.
It is Green Blue & Gold PCBoards, but the point is under stood.
I say some where that forum members came up with ten differnt names for
the 1950s-1980s "tag board". I was lost for a bit, till I understood more people]
mean the same thing with multiple more terms.

This "issue" started when one claimed "point-2-point" means only "X".
Today it is too hard to laugh and correct all of the advertised claims
that an amp it "PTP" or hand-wired or from the Paul Rivera era
or that the Paul Rivera amps are Fenders last quality hand-wired PTP amps.

Just gotta know your stuff.

By the way, what is the last true point-to-point hand-wired Fender amp that
has "no-none-zero" turret board or eyelet board or tag board, etc.?
Does one exist?

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Post subject: Re: New Amp Day * 1984 Twin Reverb II Amp Head * Need some h
Posted: Wed Jun 20, 2012 7:47 am
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Toppscore wrote:
I say some where that forum members came up with ten differnt names for the 1950s-1980s "tag board". I was lost for a bit, till I understood more people]
mean the same thing with multiple more terms.


Forum members didn't come up with those names, industry did. And forum members didn't create the misconceptions of what point to point assembly is either. Granted there may not be a member here who actually worked in an industry where they themselves did point to point assembly, many of us did work in the industry not too long afterwards and worked on actual point to point construction. I know some respected members here who have been in the electronics business longer than I have and I've been in it for 33 years now.

I would suggest using a more humble approach to how you react to the good information these kind folks here provide to you.

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Post subject: Re: New Amp Day * 1984 Twin Reverb II Amp Head * Need some h
Posted: Wed Jun 20, 2012 8:24 am
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Arc-n-spark wrote:
Toppscore wrote:
I say some where that forum members came up with ten differnt names for the 1950s-1980s "tag board". I was lost for a bit, till I understood more people]
mean the same thing with multiple more terms.
Forum members didn't come up with those names, industry did. And forum members didn't create the misconceptions of what point to point assembly is either. Granted there may not be a member here who actually worked in an industry where they themselves did point to point assembly, many of us did work in the industry not too long afterwards and worked on actual point to point construction. I know some respected members here who have been in the electronics business longer than I have and I've been in it for 33 years now. I would suggest using a more humble approach to how you react to the good information these kind folks here provide to you.


Arc. It was a contest to see how many legit terms were used.
Great that some have worked before tubes were invented.
Most fellow forum members are really cool, don't you think?

Just a couple of condescending attitudes from one or two does not make the forum's image.

Anyway, since Point-to-point is a big subject that I have been discussing.
please tell me five Fender amps, if not one Fender amp that is/are true point-to-point?
No boards, no turrets, no eyelets, no nothing. Just wires to chassis metal.
This is now my second request for a list of Fender amps that "qualify" as
point to point hand wired amps like the epectronics from the 1920s & 1930s. I'm waiting.

Arc, you will see that a couple of grumps are spoutin' gas over nothing but opinion.

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Post subject: Re: New Amp Day * 1984 Twin Reverb II Amp Head * Need some h
Posted: Wed Jun 20, 2012 8:30 am
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Toppscore wrote:
Anyway, since Point-to-point is a big subject that I have been discussing.
please tell me five Fender amps, if not one Fender amp that is/are true point-to-point?
No boards, no turrets, no eyelets, no nothing. Just wires to chassis metal.
This is now my second request for a list of Fender amps that "qualify" as
point to point hand wired amps like the epectronics from the 1920s & 1930s. I'm waiting.


I've had enough of you and your BS. Read the thread and you will see that a schematic, wiring diagram, AND photos of a Fender POINT-TO-POINT amp have been posted. You are so totally clueless about what you are talking about that it is laughable.

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Post subject: Re: New Amp Day * 1984 Twin Reverb II Amp Head * Need some h
Posted: Wed Jun 20, 2012 8:50 am
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bluesky636 wrote:
Toppscore wrote:
Anyway, since Point-to-point is a big subject that I have been discussing.
please tell me five Fender amps, if not one Fender amp that is/are true point-to-point?
No boards, no turrets, no eyelets, no nothing. Just wires to chassis metal.
This is now my second request for a list of Fender amps that "qualify" as
point to point hand wired amps like the epectronics from the 1920s & 1930s. I'm waiting.


I've had enough of you and your BS. Read the thread and you will see that a schematic, wiring diagram, AND photos of a Fender POINT-TO-POINT amp have been posted. You are so totally clueless about what you are talking about that it is laughable.



Name five Fender amps that have no boards, that are truely 1940s point to point.
I saw the photo ~ of what?

In fact, Blue, the thread is about it being OK to call some amps hand-wired amps
and point-to-point amps as I have provided many instances of amps using those terms
Did you read those? Are you stuck in mud? Read the thread. Read the listed examples.
Again, not everything falls into the 1940s rule of thumb.

Please list five Fender amps that are TRUE POINT-to-POINT. Please.
This is my third request for a list of "TRUE FENDER POINT-2-POINT" amps.
Read the ten(+) examples I listed and list Five Fender amps.

Therefore, back to this thread. Those hundreds of Paul Rivera era fans who state
that the 1983-1986 Fender II amps are the last Point-to-Point hand wired amps
Fender made, are they wrong? Maybe to 1940s guidelines.
Probably not to 2012 market place guidelines.

Read the 10(+) examples. You are not 100% with it.

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Post subject: Re: New Amp Day * 1984 Twin Reverb II Amp Head * Need some h
Posted: Wed Jun 20, 2012 9:24 am
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Toppscore wrote:
bluesky636 wrote:
Toppscore wrote:
Anyway, since Point-to-point is a big subject that I have been discussing.
please tell me five Fender amps, if not one Fender amp that is/are true point-to-point?
No boards, no turrets, no eyelets, no nothing. Just wires to chassis metal.
This is now my second request for a list of Fender amps that "qualify" as
point to point hand wired amps like the epectronics from the 1920s & 1930s. I'm waiting.


I've had enough of you and your BS. Read the thread and you will see that a schematic, wiring diagram, AND photos of a Fender POINT-TO-POINT amp have been posted. You are so totally clueless about what you are talking about that it is laughable.



Name five Fender amps that have no boards, that are truely 1940s point to point.
I saw the photo ~ of what?

In fact, Blue, the thread is about it being OK to call some amps hand-wired amps
and point-to-point amps as I have provided many instances of amps using those terms
Did you read those? Are you stuck in mud? Read the thread. Read the listed examples.
Again, not everything falls into the 1940s rule of thumb.

Please list five Fender amps that are TRUE POINT-to-POINT. Please.
This is my third request for a list of "TRUE FENDER POINT-2-POINT" amps.
Read the ten(+) examples I listed and list Five Fender amps.

Therefore, back to this thread. Those hundreds of Paul Rivera era fans who state
that the 1983-1986 Fender II amps are the last Point-to-Point hand wired amps
Fender made, are they wrong? Maybe to 1940s guidelines.
Probably not to 2012 market place guidelines.

Read the 10(+) examples. You are not 100% with it.


No Toppscore, you are the one who is 100% not with it. Time and time again you have demonstrated your total lack of any technical knowledge of amp design and construction. Your sole claim to fame is apparently spending money on guitars and amps (which to be honest I doubt even exist) and searching the Internet for random quotes to back up your "opinions". There are people in this forum with far greater knowledge about guitars and amps than you will ever have. All you do is come here and post stupid questions and deliberately create controversy. You are nothing but a troll as far as I am concerned.

Oh, gee. Now I've gone and done it. You'll probably run to the mods now whining about I have insulted you and been rude to you and demand that I be banned. Go ahead. Feel free. Have fun. Above all, get a life.

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Last edited by bluesky636 on Wed Jun 20, 2012 9:42 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Post subject: Re: New Amp Day * 1984 Twin Reverb II Amp Head * Need some h
Posted: Wed Jun 20, 2012 9:33 am
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Toppscore wrote:
Arc-n-spark wrote:
Toppscore wrote:
I say some where that forum members came up with ten differnt names for the 1950s-1980s "tag board". I was lost for a bit, till I understood more people]
mean the same thing with multiple more terms.
Forum members didn't come up with those names, industry did. And forum members didn't create the misconceptions of what point to point assembly is either. Granted there may not be a member here who actually worked in an industry where they themselves did point to point assembly, many of us did work in the industry not too long afterwards and worked on actual point to point construction. I know some respected members here who have been in the electronics business longer than I have and I've been in it for 33 years now. I would suggest using a more humble approach to how you react to the good information these kind folks here provide to you.


Arc. It was a contest to see how many legit terms were used.
Great that some have worked before tubes were invented.
Most fellow forum members are really cool, don't you think?

Just a couple of condescending attitudes from one or two does not make the forum's image.

Anyway, since Point-to-point is a big subject that I have been discussing.
please tell me five Fender amps, if not one Fender amp that is/are true point-to-point?
No boards, no turrets, no eyelets, no nothing. Just wires to chassis metal.
This is now my second request for a list of Fender amps that "qualify" as
point to point hand wired amps like the epectronics from the 1920s & 1930s. I'm waiting.

Arc, you will see that a couple of grumps are spoutin' gas over nothing but opinion.

First of all you said "Great that some have worked before tubes were invented." which shows that you didn't read what I wrote.
Second, you post condecending remarks yourself so judge not lest ye be judged.
Third, I have not seen this spoutin' gas over nothing you speak of.

What I have seen is you niggling about many things that really don't matter much and inciting others to react to comments you made that seem meant to irritate. You have replied to some of my posts with more content about things of interest to you and then go on and on about you own gear. You have worn out my good will. I have tried to drop little hints here and there about what you could do to improve your rep here but you don't seem to get it.

Now I know this is going to drive you to come back with a childish response which I'm sure some may find entertaining but I think most will see it as confimation of what we already know and expect from someone who is so high on himself. I doubt I will reply to any of your posts from here on and up until you get banned.

Please note that I did not call you any names or insult your intelligence in this thread yet you seem to do that often to others when you post in these forums. Good job.

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Post subject: Re: New Amp Day * 1984 Twin Reverb II Amp Head * Need some h
Posted: Wed Jun 20, 2012 11:38 am
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Can anyone else confirm these amps as PTP? I am sure of the 600 and 800, and another member confirmed the Deluxe. The Pro and Princeton were made at the same time as the Deluxe, and maybe were the only three amps that Fender had in '46.

Champ 600 – (5B1, 5C1) 1949 - 1953
Champ 800 - (5C1) 1948 – 1949
Woody Pro – (?) 1946 - 1947
Woody Princeton – (5B2) 1946 – 1948
Woody Deluxe (Model 26) – (?) 1946 – 1948

If you count K&F, '44 -'45, I believe those were PTP also. (only two models?)

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Post subject: Re: New Amp Day * 1984 Twin Reverb II Amp Head * Need some h
Posted: Wed Jun 20, 2012 11:50 am
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shimmilou wrote:
Can anyone else confirm these amps as PTP? I am sure of the 600 and 800, and another member confirmed the Deluxe. The Pro and Princeton were made at the same time as the Deluxe, and maybe were the only three amps that Fender had in '46.

Champ 600 – (5B1, 5C1) 1949 - 1953
Champ 800 - (5C1) 1948 – 1949
Woody Pro – (?) 1946 - 1947
Woody Princeton – (5B2) 1946 – 1948
Woody Deluxe (Model 26) – (?) 1946 – 1948

If you count K&F, '44 -'45, I believe those were PTP also. (only two models?)


The 5C1 Champs and WoodyDeluxe (Model 26) have already been shown to be true PTP in this thread. I can find schematics for most of the others, but not wiring diagrams.

I doubt that any of this will be sufficient for Toppscore. We would probably need a signed and notarized affidavit from Leo Fender himself. :roll:

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Post subject: Re: New Amp Day * 1984 Twin Reverb II Amp Head * Need some h
Posted: Wed Jun 20, 2012 11:53 am
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bluesky636 wrote:
shimmilou wrote:
Can anyone else confirm these amps as PTP? I am sure of the 600 and 800, and another member confirmed the Deluxe. The Pro and Princeton were made at the same time as the Deluxe, and maybe were the only three amps that Fender had in '46.

Champ 600 – (5B1, 5C1) 1949 - 1953
Champ 800 - (5C1) 1948 – 1949
Woody Pro – (?) 1946 - 1947
Woody Princeton – (5B2) 1946 – 1948
Woody Deluxe (Model 26) – (?) 1946 – 1948

If you count K&F, '44 -'45, I believe those were PTP also. (only two models?)


The 5C1 Champs and WoodyDeluxe (Model 26) have already been shown to be true PTP in this thread. I can find schematics for most of the others, but not wiring diagrams.

I doubt that any of this will be sufficient for Toppscore. We would probably need a signed and notarized affidavit from Leo Fender himself. :roll:


Sounds like you guys have been doing Ts homework for him.

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Post subject: Re: New Amp Day * 1984 Twin Reverb II Amp Head * Need some h
Posted: Wed Jun 20, 2012 12:00 pm
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bluesky636 wrote:
I doubt that any of this will be sufficient for Toppscore. We would probably need a signed and notarized affidavit from Leo Fender himself. :roll:


He'd tell Leo he was full of $@!&!

:lol:

God bless the "ignore" list......I'm done with this cupcake.

:mrgreen:

Arjay

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Post subject: Re: New Amp Day * 1984 Twin Reverb II Amp Head * Need some h
Posted: Wed Jun 20, 2012 12:14 pm
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Arc-n-spark wrote:
bluesky636 wrote:
shimmilou wrote:
Can anyone else confirm these amps as PTP? I am sure of the 600 and 800, and another member confirmed the Deluxe. The Pro and Princeton were made at the same time as the Deluxe, and maybe were the only three amps that Fender had in '46.

Champ 600 – (5B1, 5C1) 1949 - 1953
Champ 800 - (5C1) 1948 – 1949
Woody Pro – (?) 1946 - 1947
Woody Princeton – (5B2) 1946 – 1948
Woody Deluxe (Model 26) – (?) 1946 – 1948

If you count K&F, '44 -'45, I believe those were PTP also. (only two models?)


The 5C1 Champs and WoodyDeluxe (Model 26) have already been shown to be true PTP in this thread. I can find schematics for most of the others, but not wiring diagrams.

I doubt that any of this will be sufficient for Toppscore. We would probably need a signed and notarized affidavit from Leo Fender himself. :roll:


Sounds like you guys have been doing Ts homework for him.


He wouldn't recognize what he was looking for if he found it. :roll:

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Post subject: Re: New Amp Day * 1984 Twin Reverb II Amp Head * Need some h
Posted: Wed Jun 20, 2012 12:16 pm
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Retroverbial wrote:
bluesky636 wrote:
I doubt that any of this will be sufficient for Toppscore. We would probably need a signed and notarized affidavit from Leo Fender himself. :roll:


He'd tell Leo he was full of $@!&!

:lol:

God bless the "ignore" list......I'm done with this cupcake.

:mrgreen:

Arjay


Since Leo didn't post on the Internet, you are probably correct. :lol:

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Post subject: Re: New Amp Day * 1984 Twin Reverb II Amp Head * Need some h
Posted: Wed Jun 20, 2012 12:37 pm
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bluesky636 wrote:
shimmilou wrote:
Can anyone else confirm these amps as PTP? I am sure of the 600 and 800, and another member confirmed the Deluxe. The Pro and Princeton were made at the same time as the Deluxe, and maybe were the only three amps that Fender had in '46.

Champ 600 – (5B1, 5C1) 1949 - 1953
Champ 800 - (5C1) 1948 – 1949
Woody Pro – (?) 1946 - 1947
Woody Princeton – (5B2) 1946 – 1948
Woody Deluxe (Model 26) – (?) 1946 – 1948
If you count K&F, '44 -'45, I believe those were PTP also. (only two models?)

The 5C1 Champs and WoodyDeluxe (Model 26) have already been shown to be true PTP in this thread. I can find schematics for most of the others, but not wiring diagrams.
I doubt that any of this will be sufficient for Toppscore. We would probably need a signed and notarized affidavit from Leo Fender himself. :roll:



Thanks Bill Bluesky.
Glad to see some 65 year old amps made the point-to-point grade.
Truely, I do believe you. Honestly, I was wondering it there were any Fenders.
Is not all this ruckus about modern sellers/mfgs claiming hand wired point to point a bit silly?

So, for the big test. Since my oldest amp is 1954, do any of these few
1940s amps have a circuit board of any type? (eyelet? tag? turret? cardboard?)

This is getting to be soooooo humorous because of all the raised "text".
Personally, I had a feeling most 1950s amps would not make the grade because I've
studied the 5B6 1x15 Bassmans. But, I wasn't sure if any other 1950s amps were PTP.
The PTP picture shown earlier within this thread did not look Fender.

And I'm very happy someone came up with these glorious old amps.
They are supposed to be industructable. I learned quite a bit.

Isn't it very interesting that basically the 1940s was the end of the PTP era,
and yet it is a BIG deal today. If you read carefully, some of the ads claiming
handwired PTP features, you'll notice all ads will compare their amps to the
1950s & 1960s Fender amps, not the 1940s Fender amps.

What do we do when probably nobody produces a mass production PTP amp
yet claims PTP? Even large manufacturer's custom shops do not produce PTP amps.
Maybe a child's science project might create one. They just are not sensible.

Back to the thread.

I am sure someone will come up with more examples of the "Model A" or "Model T"
type PTP amps from the 1940s or 1950s; maybe from Fender or other mfgs.

Just scan the internet searching for "point-to-point amps".
PTP is all over the place, misused from this forum's perspective,
and if we chatted with an PTP amp seller in person, we'd know what to do, right?

But 2012 PTP is not the 1940s PTP. Right?
My heart is to believe seller's really do not know and their intentions are not bad.
Toppscore 8)

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Last edited by Toppscore on Wed Jun 20, 2012 12:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post subject: Re: New Amp Day * 1984 Twin Reverb II Amp Head * Need some h
Posted: Wed Jun 20, 2012 12:41 pm
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Retroverbial wrote:

He'd tell Leo he was full of $@!&! :lol:
God bless the "ignore" list......I'm done with this cupcake. :mrgreen: Arjay


Cupcake?
There's a pound of cake & pizza crumbs within your quad chin :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

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