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Post subject: Re: New Amp Day * 1984 Twin Reverb II Amp Head * Need some h
Posted: Tue Jun 19, 2012 9:12 am
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Post subject: Re: New Amp Day * 1984 Twin Reverb II Amp Head * Need some h
Posted: Tue Jun 19, 2012 9:16 am
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Post subject: Re: New Amp Day * 1984 Twin Reverb II Amp Head * Need some h
Posted: Tue Jun 19, 2012 9:35 am
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shimmilou wrote:
No, that doesn't work for me. Like we have said, the use of "green printed-circuit boards" is not the deciding line between PTP and modern. Instead of making up new and even more confusing nonsense, let's stick with reality. The old fifth-grade argument of "but, everyone else is calling it PTP, why can't I?", still isn't valid.
Are you not paying attention? Opinion means nothing as far as what point to point actually means. Point to point means there are no circuit boards of any kind. No eyelet boards, no turret boards, no printed circuit boards in a point to point amp. Hand wired does not mean point to point. An amp with a printed circuit board can still be wired by hand, and that doesn't make it point to point.
If it has an eyelet board, it is not point to point.
If it has a turret board, it is not point to point.
If it has a printed circuit board, it is not point to point.
Hand assembling an amp with an eyelet board is still not point to point.
All eyelet board and turret board amps are hand wired and hand soldered, and that doesn't equal point to point. The printed circuit board is the only one that can be machine assembled and machine soldered.
Just because many people have a misunderstanding, doesn't change the actual meaning one bit. And the 2% hand wiring in modern amps doesn't equal point to point, nor is it considered "hand wired" either.
It doesn't get any more clear than the pictures posted by bluesky636 and BMW2002Ti as to what PTP actually is.


Yes. Times have changed. If PTP died in the 1940s, then the idea of hand wiring and soldering from point-to-point is in the intentions of those who want the buyer to know that surface mount technology or PCBoards are not being used. The misleading sellers are proud of their amps and work and feel there is enough hand soldering and hand made connections to warrant the terms: Hand Wired and Point-to-Point.

For me, in my opinion, the defining moment is the “end of the Paul Rivera era amps” and when CBS sold out to the modern Fender group. Manufacturing changed. Silverface type amps began to fade away. Guitarist enjoy Silverface amps. Many claim the Paul Rivera Fender II amps are the last production amps that were hand-wired or point-to-point amps made by Fender.

Now, you can scream and kick that they are using the wrong term, you can struggle and swim up stream, or, know in their hearts they mean well. The marketer and sellers just want to make a distinction. Personally, I love that distinction. I call it the “Green PCBoard Era”

Instead of asking if your amp is point-to-point or hand-wired built, just state it does not have a green PCBoard or it does have a green PCBoard. Simple as that.

I know old farts will really let gas escape over this. Some really old guys just love their Tweeds and Blackface amps. But times have changed. To me, when a seller of modern amps claims PTP or HW, I just ask if there is a printed circuit board. That solves all of the problems. EBay will make the sell refund as “not as advertised”.

Remember, all amps have some hand-wiring and all amps have some human hand made connections from one point to another point. Not a great idea to insinuate the amp is 100% this or that when only a small percentage is what is claimed. False advertising.

So, guys, are you going to change the world and tell all that their claims are incorrect?

Take 100 amp designers, take 100 Fender engineers, take 100 amp repair professionals, take 100 guitarists, take 100 amp collectors . . . . .
PUT ALL 500 OF THEM IN ONE ROOM and ASK THEM ALL TO SHARE THEIR IDEAS
ABOUT THE BELOW FOLLOWING TERMS and the BELOW FOLLOWING COMMENTS.
THINK THAT FOR ONE MINUTE THAT ALL WILL AGREE ON THE MEANINGS
AND THEIR APPLICATIONS TOWARD GUITAR AMPLIFIERS.
AGREE ON EVERYTHING? What do you think?


SMT Surface mount technology
SMC Surface mounted components
PBC Printed board circuits
Hand wired
Point to point
Circuit board
Tag board
Turret board
Modular components
Most printed circuit boards are machine stuffed
Channel switching * Effects loops
Solid state amps & modeling amps

“All amps are all hand-wired of some type, and at least some minimal level. The new modern amps have the boards PCB ready to slap-in. There are still many connections to solder, so you could say every amp is hand wired to some degree. No one machine does everything.”

“Fender management: Fenders Custom Shop amps vs Hand Wired amps. We do not do hand-wiring the way they did in the 1950s because our basic amps would have to sell for $3000 +.”

“Hand wired does not necessarily equate to point to point wiring. An amp with a tag board may be hand wired but it is not wired true point to point. The comparison should be focused on amps with PCBs vs amps with hand wired tag boards.”

“I don't think there is such a thing as a hand wired with a printed circuit board amp, unless you consider it hand wired as long as somebody has wired part of the amp by hand. But in that case even most SS amps would be hand wired.”

“The ST1 boards from Marshalls of the 1970s right up in some cases to the present day. These boards are printed (or rather etched) and then populated by hand, then connected to off-board components. These are truly hand-assembled amps. The ST1 etched boards provide a marginally shorter assembly time and are less expensive. They provide a marginally longer time to modify or repair and some will say are less sturdy when it comes to repeated modification. The fact is if you take a 1971 Marshall and a 1973 Marshall of the same model you get the same components right down to the phenolic sockets, mustard caps and resistors. An amp with an ST1 board is at least as stable and solidly constructed as a turret board and maybe even more so when excluding aftermarket modification. The reality is that the difference in reputation these PCB amps have from the closest-related earlier turret board amps rests more on sentiment and at worst the value of the Channel 1 bright cap. After all we have no problem with the etched board in a Clyde McCoy wah, MkII Tonebender or Arbiter Fuzz Face.”

“Modern PCB based amps still have hand stuffed components such as IC chips and tubes (I believe) as well plenty of connections still requiring hand wired "point-to-point" soldering. Therefore, all amps have "hand wired" soldered connections. Even solid state amps.”

The generation before PCB boards had "tag boards" which are the 1950s-1970s Fender amps. They did not utilize machines & computer technology the way the modern green PCB board amps use technology. These "tag board" amps also used hand wiring solder connections. I believe that when sellers and advertisers and boutique amp marketers claim "hand-wired", they are discussing the "tag board" amps that use "point-to-point" hand soldering for the wiring connections. I am not sure when the technology changes took place during the 1970s/1980s and to which amps. I have seen interesting changes in Fender amps around the Paul Rivera era and some of the later 1980s amps advertised on EBay.”


“My point is that in real terms you should not separate an amp built from hand populated etched boards from a turret or tag board.The fact is you could make an etched board in your home with just a marker and a bath of juristic acid. I believe the line should be drawn in the sand between amps that use SMC or do not use SMC.”

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Post subject: Re: New Amp Day * 1984 Twin Reverb II Amp Head * Need some h
Posted: Tue Jun 19, 2012 10:19 am
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Show your work then. Meaning, post some links. I know that people misuse terms, and it would be nice to know which people are lying to us. :wink:

Besides yourself, please show us exactly who is claiming that "hand wired" is the same as "PTP"? Or for that matter, who is claiming that amps with circuit boards of any type are PTP? Your "line" is quite askew. You can make distinctions between amps as you see fit, but if you want to talk shop with us, please speak our lingo, and please try to understand the real meaning of the terms used. Otherwise, it's inane babbling, circular logic and obstinacy.

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Post subject: Re: New Amp Day * 1984 Twin Reverb II Amp Head * Need some h
Posted: Tue Jun 19, 2012 12:17 pm
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shimmilou wrote:
Show your work then. Meaning, post some links. I know that people misuse terms, and it would be nice to know which people are lying to us. :wink:

Besides yourself, please show us exactly who is claiming that "hand wired" is the same as "PTP"? Or for that matter, who is claiming that amps with circuit boards of any type are PTP? Your "line" is quite askew. You can make distinctions between amps as you see fit, but if you want to talk shop with us, please speak our lingo, and please try to understand the real meaning of the terms used. Otherwise, it's inane babbling, circular logic and obstinacy.


You're wasting your breath. :wink:

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Post subject: Re: New Amp Day * 1984 Twin Reverb II Amp Head * Need some h
Posted: Tue Jun 19, 2012 1:00 pm
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bluesky636 wrote:
You're wasting your breath. :wink:


+1

Pissin' in the wind.

:mrgreen:

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Post subject: Re: New Amp Day * 1984 Twin Reverb II Amp Head * Need some h
Posted: Tue Jun 19, 2012 4:31 pm
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Toppscore...dude...let it go...when your wrong your wrong. This is not to start another argument with you, but you have to understand something, you have some opinions about some tube amps. Guys like Arjay, Bluesky, Shimmy, Art, and a couple others, actually rebuild and repair amps from A to Z...guite simply they acutally KNOW what they are talking about. These guys have probably forgot more about tube amps then you will ever know. That is just a fact...take deep breaths and let it go...this is not about winning it is about learning. I have learned more about amps from these guys over the past year or so than I ever thought was possible...you might try listening for a change, and posting opinions less.

Besides your Karma is running low around here and if you keep up the argueing Brad is going to tire of this and make you go elsewhere...

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Post subject: Re: New Amp Day * 1984 Twin Reverb II Amp Head * Need some h
Posted: Tue Jun 19, 2012 6:32 pm
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T2Stratman wrote:
Besides your Karma is running low around here and if you keep up the argueing Brad is going to tire of this and make you go elsewhere...


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:mrgreen:

Arjay

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Post subject: Re: New Amp Day * 1984 Twin Reverb II Amp Head * Need some h
Posted: Tue Jun 19, 2012 6:51 pm
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shimmilou wrote:
Show your work then. Meaning, post some links. I know that people misuse terms, and it would be nice to know which people are lying to us. :wink:
Besides yourself, please show us exactly who is claiming that "hand wired" is the same as "PTP"? Or for that matter, who is claiming that amps with circuit boards of any type are PTP? Your "line" is quite askew. You can make distinctions between amps as you see fit, but if you want to talk shop with us, please speak our lingo, and please try to understand the real meaning of the terms used. Otherwise, it's inane babbling, circular logic and obstinacy.
Thanks. No problem. Thanks for letting me know that "lingo quality" has not been met.
Why get angry or close minds regarding different opinions and thought?
Why not try to see where another is coming from?
Maybe you are not 100% correct, right or are partially correct within your own points of view?
Consider yourselves right and you’d pass the test, but others think differently.

I will not dwell on any of this thread’s negative commenters, their anger, nor their narrow-minded discussion abilities ~ as I am here to grow, learn & discuss, not be told that I am completely wrong by narrow minded controllers. Truly, you ALL know the use of PTP/HW terms are all over the Internet & EBay, not only within amps for sales, descriptions, but within amp reviews!!!
We have ALL seen them. Your requested examples follow:

Following is a PERFECT example of what is on the market place. I realize that the couple of negative commenters in this thread directed at me because "words are stated differently" than they believe or have been taught, but, consider the many others who think differently than you do. Again, for the umpteenth time, NOBODY is right or wrong.

http://www.aikenamps.com/PCBorPTP.htm * Is Point-to-Point Better Than PCB?
Which is better, point-to-point (PTP), or printed circuit board (PCB)? You will find manufacturers arguing both sides, some quoting outlandish claims to support their argument, others claiming PTP is much better, then, when they start using PC boards, they claim PCB is better. What is the truth?

First, exactly what is point-to-point?
Point-to-point wiring is the term given to a style of construction where the components are mounted on the tube sockets and/or terminal strips, and the connections between components are then hand-wired together to complete the circuit. Perhaps the best-known example of point-to-point is the Matchless amplifiers, which had the parts mounted on terminal strips and wired together. Carr amplifiers also use this type of construction.

The PTP term is also commonly used when referring to amplifiers with parts loaded on eyelet boards or turret boards, with the connections hand-wired between them, although these are technically not "true" point-to-point. Old Fenders are examples of eyelet board construction, with the eyelets installed in a wax-impregnated cardboard board. Hiwatts are examples of turret board construction, with all the components neatly layed out between two rows of turrets on a piece of phenolic board.

Properly layed out, a point-to-point amplifier is a work of art, and is virtually indestructible. Improperly done, they are a veritable "rat's nest" of wires, impossible to troubleshoot. The main advantage to point-to-point is ease of maintenance/modification. Components are simply desoldered from their eyelets or terminal strips and new ones are put in their place."



http://torresengineering.stores.yahoo.net/reisfenamppo.html
All amps are built to the correct Pre CBS specs, the best models of each amp. The entire (lousy) Fender Printed circuit board is removed from the amp and an all new Torres point to point (PTP is the internet term) correct Vintage Fender style eyelet board installed and wired. A new Point to Point correct value power supply with the highest quality correctly formed filter caps is also installed!!



Other quick examples:

[b]Harmony Central: This is the twin reverb II deisgned in the early 80's by paul rivera and is a black face with clack knobs and all HANDWIRED!

EBay: Victoria Sovereign Amp Boutique Guitar Amplifier PTP Handwired EL34/6L6GC RARE!!
* 1971 Marshall JMP 50 Watt Vintage Head PTP wiring
* Custom blackface Fender Princeton reverb handwired ALESSANDRO PTP point to point

Vintage Sound custom builds vintage-spec, point-to-point, hand wired tube amplifiers. All amps are point-to-point hand-wired.

Epinions: Budda, Dr Z, Matchless, Tony Bruno, Dumble, Bogner, Victoria, Fender Deluxe II.. Can you tell what all these amps have in common? They are all boutique quality hand wired amplifiers. WAIT A MINUTE HERE LOU, what is the Fender Deluxe doing in there? Well my friends, if you gave me a little more time I would list all the Super Reverbs, Bandmasters, Concerts as well as a plethora of old Gibson amps that are absolutely boutique quality.

Epinions: The Black Faced Fender Deluxe II at first glance quite similar looking to pre and post CBS Deluxe Reverbs.. That is where the similarity ends. The Fender Deluxe IIwith hand wired circuits

Harmony Central: Handwired Fender Twin Reverb II combo - Closest production to an old dumble. This is the twin reverb II deisgned in the early 80's by paul rivera and is a black face with clack knobs and all HANDWIRED! These amps are point-to-point wired


===================================
If there are no "true PTP" amps being constructed in this day and age, I gotta believe the some of the commenters in this thread know that a “PTP/HW" claim really has an "asterisk" after the term, ~ meaning the seller or mfg has good intentions but really does not know what "your definition of PTP" is. The seller was told differently. The mfg's of amps may purposefully misuse the "PTP/HW" terms because they know the market misuses the terms.

I am not saying anyone is wrong. I suppose the pictures and previous thread comments are accurate and I buy into and own your terms and their meanings. But the market nowadays think differently.

I know and believe that PTP is PTP, and I know that people not in your shoes still use PTP/HW terms "not as a true PTP/HW amps" as you professionals believe but to counter in their own words that their amps "are not machine made" amps.

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Last edited by Toppscore on Tue Jun 19, 2012 7:53 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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Post subject: Re: New Amp Day * 1984 Twin Reverb II Amp Head * Need some h
Posted: Tue Jun 19, 2012 6:55 pm
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bluesky636 wrote:
You're wasting your breath. :wink:


Thanks. Am I wasting away my typing fingers and my research energy as well :D

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Post subject: Re: New Amp Day * 1984 Twin Reverb II Amp Head * Need some h
Posted: Tue Jun 19, 2012 6:56 pm
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Retroverbial wrote:
bluesky636 wrote:
You're wasting your breath. :wink:

+1
Pissin' in the wind. :mrgreen: Arjay

Are you down wind :?: :lol:

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Last edited by Toppscore on Tue Jun 19, 2012 7:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post subject: Re: New Amp Day * 1984 Twin Reverb II Amp Head * Need some h
Posted: Tue Jun 19, 2012 7:07 pm
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Final comment regarding the examples I shared within the above email.

If you claim most of the comments are not accurate and you disagree with them, or if
they're slightly off the mark, maybe accept that the amp world terminology is changing.
Why fight the market place? Why try to be a teacher where no teaching is desired?
Some guys remind me of Older American Indians passing down the old traditions.
It is up to the younger people to accept or not accept. Traditions do change. Thankfully.

IMHO, trying to change the Internet, EBay and the amplifier marketplace
is the same fight you'd get trying to FORCE today's children and young adults
to speak proper English, text in full words and use proper grammer at all time.

The Webster's Dictionary, encyclopedias and electronics resources are constantly
in change mode and are evolving. Why not let the terms "PTP/HW" be OK
in the marketplace with meanings that differ from thirty years ago? Others have.
Unless some like to argue, be right and enjoy losing against changing times.

Is it that hard to feel there was a BIG change when GREEN BLUE or GOLD printed circuit boards
were part of the Fender amplifier design process, that that period of time (IMO, the late 1980s),
is a good way to make the distinction "Vintage" vs "Modern" :?:
I believe so.

I believe that many feel "hand wired" or "point-to-point" reflects either the
older pre 1986 amps or reflects modern amps trying to emulate pre 1986 amps.

Food for thought. My goal has been bringing forth obvious late 1980s manufacturing
and design and production changes as a focal point between the first forty years
at Fender and the new modern twenty-five years of modern Fender ownership.

OK. Take care. Hope I have at least opened a couple of minds.
Maybe some one reading the whole thread will see four or more ideas. Toppscore 8)

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Post subject: Re: New Amp Day * 1984 Twin Reverb II Amp Head * Need some h
Posted: Tue Jun 19, 2012 9:33 pm
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Turret board construction is my favorite.

I saw no mention of terminal strips. Would that be PTP? :lol:

I've done wire wrap construction when I worked in the oil industry. We had a pneumatic wire wrap gun that you would feed the wire into and it would automatically strip and wrap the wire around the square wire wrap terminals. The wire would wrap 7 times around the terminal very tightly and the connections didn't need to be soldered.

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Post subject: Re: New Amp Day * 1984 Twin Reverb II Amp Head * Need some h
Posted: Tue Jun 19, 2012 9:59 pm
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mhowell wrote:
Turret board construction is my favorite.

I saw no mention of terminal strips. Would that be PTP? :lol:

I've done wire wrap construction when I worked in the oil industry. We had a pneumatic wire wrap gun that you would feed the wire into and it would automatically strip and wrap the wire around the square wire wrap terminals. The wire would wrap 7 times around the terminal very tightly and the connections didn't need to be soldered.


I built some turrent board projects years ago as a kid, but none lately. I never could get the hang of wrapping the wire around the posts. :lol:

Terminal strips are used frequently in all types of construction to bring multiple wires to a common point such as a ground.

I have done wire wrap construction before. I worked as an assembler in a small electronics company during the summer while in college. We built radio transmitter monitoring equipment. Our main product was called the "Digital Antenna Monitor, #1". You would hear the owner's son, who was the design lab chief frequently exclaim "that damn one failed again!" :lol: Anyway, we used the wire wrap gun to attach the sensor leads to the circuit board terminals as the wires were fairly large and it was quicker than soldering.

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Post subject: Re: New Amp Day * 1984 Twin Reverb II Amp Head * Need some h
Posted: Wed Jun 20, 2012 4:33 am
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I think it's important here to mention that every amp that I know of is hand wired. I have not seen a machine yet that can install a line cord or wire up a tube socket or a speaker.

Terminology is important in order for all to have an educated understanding of what each of us is talking about. Although many terms can be used for the same thing, that doesn't mean many terms are or could be used for all things. For instance, and this is merely an example, not all printed circuit boards are green so to refer to a circuit board as a green board could be misleading but to call it a green circuit board clears up any misunderstanding. Point to point assembly and hand wiring are two separate sets of terms for different operations and can be misleading if used improperly.

I also have to tip my hat to the many knowledgeable members here who know what they are talking about. The amount of helpfulness and willingness to share knowledge by these members is why I am a member here.

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