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Post subject: Re: New Amp Day * 1984 Twin Reverb II Amp Head * Need some h
Posted: Mon Jun 18, 2012 10:41 am
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shimmilou wrote:
Toppscore wrote:
...
So, what does my 1954 Fender 4x10 Bassman have?
My 1968 Twin Reverb 2x12 have?
My 1984 Twin Reverb II amp head have?

What changed in 1986? Why do many say 1986 was the last P2P amps?...


Look for yourself. Then you'll know that "many" don't know WTF they are talking about. There are still "boutique" amps that use PTP, but Fender production amps have used eyelet boards long before '86. Every layout drawing for any Bassman that I have seen has an eyelet board. Maybe there are different understandings of exactly what PTP really is. :idea:


There is only one understanding as far as I have ever been concerned:

Point-to-point:

Image

Eyelet board:

Image

Turret board:

Image

Printed circuit board:

Image

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Post subject: Re: New Amp Day * 1984 Twin Reverb II Amp Head * Need some h
Posted: Mon Jun 18, 2012 1:42 pm
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That is my understanding as well.

Did Fender ever use PTP for production amps? Maybe in the '40s?

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Post subject: Re: New Amp Day * 1984 Twin Reverb II Amp Head * Need some h
Posted: Mon Jun 18, 2012 1:59 pm
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Actually, I believe the answer is "yes".

The 5C1 circuit from the wide panel Champ and Champ 600/800 is clearly point-to-point as shown in the chassis layout:

http://ampwares.com/schematics/champ_5c1.pdf

However, by the 5E1 narrow panel Champ, Fender switched to eyelet boards:

http://ampwares.com/schematics/champ_5e1.pdf

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Post subject: Re: New Amp Day * 1984 Twin Reverb II Amp Head * Need some h
Posted: Mon Jun 18, 2012 3:55 pm
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Everything I have ever seen written about Fender amps has been that the Rivera era amps were the last of the PTP hand wired amps...OK yes that might not be technically correct, but it was the accepted norm I was citing...i.e., eyelet boards are the generally Fender (vintage prior to the Rivera era) accepted way of describing thier style of amp making, correct?

By the way Bluesky I like that first shot labeled point to point, I had a 52 Champ that was wired just like that, no eyelet board, everything was soddered right on the chassis...thanks for bringing back the memory of that fine sounding amp!

T2

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Post subject: Re: New Amp Day * 1984 Twin Reverb II Amp Head * Need some h
Posted: Mon Jun 18, 2012 7:31 pm
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T2Stratman wrote:
Everything I have ever seen written about Fender amps has been that the Rivera era amps were the last of the PTP hand wired amps...OK yes that might not be technically correct, but it was the accepted norm I was citing...i.e., eyelet boards are the generally Fender (vintage prior to the Rivera era) accepted way of describing thier style of amp making, correct?

By the way Bluesky I like that first shot labeled point to point, I had a 52 Champ that was wired just like that, no eyelet board, everything was soddered right on the chassis...thanks for bringing back the memory of that fine sounding amp!

T2


I don't know why point-to-point has become associated with hand wired circuit boards. I guess it just sounds cool and impresses people, but it simply is not correct from an engineering standpoint. Here is a schematic and wiring diagram of a Rivera vintage Deluxe Reverb II. The circuit board is clearly present. I don't consider that point-to-point.

http://www.stratopastor.org.uk/strato/a ... wiring.pdf

Yes, a 52 Champ would have looked similar to the 5C1 circuit. True point-to-point wiring.

http://ampwares.com/schematics/champ_5c1.pdf

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Post subject: Re: New Amp Day * 1984 Twin Reverb II Amp Head * Need some h
Posted: Mon Jun 18, 2012 8:04 pm
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" Did Fender ever use PTP for production amps? Maybe in the '40s? "

Shimmy, yup. I'm lucky to own two. A Champion 600 and a Model 26.

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Post subject: Re: New Amp Day * 1984 Twin Reverb II Amp Head * Need some h
Posted: Mon Jun 18, 2012 8:31 pm
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BMW2002Ti wrote:
" Did Fender ever use PTP for production amps? Maybe in the '40s? "

Shimmy, yup. I'm lucky to own two. A Champion 600 and a Model 26.

Image


Amazing resemblance. :lol:

http://ampwares.com/schematics/champ_5c1.pdf

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Post subject: Re: New Amp Day * 1984 Twin Reverb II Amp Head * Need some h
Posted: Tue Jun 19, 2012 4:31 am
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shimmilou wrote:
Toppscore wrote:
...
So, what does my 1954 Fender 4x10 Bassman have?
My 1968 Twin Reverb 2x12 have?
My 1984 Twin Reverb II amp head have?
What changed in 1986? Why do many say 1986 was the last P2P amps?...

Look for yourself. Then you'll know that "many" don't know WTF they are talking about. There are still "boutique" amps that use PTP, but Fender production amps have used eyelet boards long before '86. Every layout drawing for any Bassman that I have seen has an eyelet board. Maybe there are different understandings of exactly what PTP really is. :idea:


I will tell you true. Look for myself?
I have opened up and shot cajillions of photographs
of Tweed, Brownface, Blackface and Silverface amps.
I have NEVER EVER seen a green printed circuit board.
I have ALWAYS seen a tag board for the caps & reisistors to be soldered upon.

Instead of stating that many do not know WTF they are talking about,
maybe it is the same thing being discussed in various forms.

Also, maybe the local tech repair guy has different terminology
than the Fender production line person
than the Fender engineer designer
than the local Junior College Amp 101 student
than the Stanford MSEE student
than the William Shockley Fairchild crew
than the Steve Jobs Apple team
than the NASA Robotics group.
Right???

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Last edited by Toppscore on Tue Jun 19, 2012 4:59 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Post subject: Re: New Amp Day * 1984 Twin Reverb II Amp Head * Need some h
Posted: Tue Jun 19, 2012 4:50 am
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I learned earlier there are many different names for the 1950s-1979s Fender amp
chassis "tag boards". My feeling is the "dividing line" between what many call the
older amps with PTP or HW and modern amps that do not have PTP or HW (which is
a very wrong assumption) is when the modern "green" boards that many of us call
"green printed circuit boards" or "green PCBoards".

So, IMHO (in my humble opinion) the green PCBoards is the dividing line between
what many call PTP (point-to-point) or HW (hand-wired) Fender Amps and the
machine based "green PCB" based Fender Amps.

INSTEAD OF CALLING AMPS WITH or WITHOUT POINT-2-POINT SOLDERING,
OR CALLING AMPS THAT ARE or ARE NOT TRULY HANDWIRED, . . . . . .
. . . . . . . MAKE THE DIVIDING LINE TO BE the ANSWER to the FOLLOWING QUESTION:

DOES THE AMP HAVE A GREEN PCBoard INSTALLED OR NOT :!: :!: :!: RIGHT :?: :?: :?:



For those of you who think that only old 1920s-1949 radios, electronic devices
and amplifiers are the ONLY "HW Hand Wired" retail products, . . . . .

I say to you, that even today's top-of-the-line machine produced amplifiers
still have plenty of "HW Hand-Wired" and "PTP Point-2-Point" connections.
There are NO/ZERO/NONE Fender amps 100% completely "NON-Hand-Wired".
All have human hands make SOME connections. This is my opinion.


Also, the end of the "Paul Rivea Era"
was the "End of the CBS Era"
which was the "Beginning of the Employee Era"
which was the "Beginning of the Green PCB" board era.

Still, in 2012, hand-wiring & P2P are part of all amps, just to lesser degree
than before 1987 and before. Human hands are needed to stuff components and
make SOME solder connections. (check out and watch some of the Fender History Videos).


I believe (would LOVE to be corrected with some back-up resources), . . . . .
it was 1987 when Fender began using "Green PCBoards" in mass production.
If not 1987, when? I am not saying all at once, but there was a year during the late 1980s
that at least one chassis design (Twin Reverb? Super? Bassman?) was using Green PCBoards.

By the 1990s, ALL Fender mass production amps were using PCBoard designs; with
the exception of SOME custom shop amps and maybe SOME Bruce Zinky products.


Open for debate & ideas, but Hand-Wiring has and will always be in Fender Production.
Open for debate & ideas, but PTP-Point-2-Point wiring is still in Fender Production.
Just HW & PTP is on a much less scale than before. Right?

Toppscore 8)

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Post subject: Re: New Amp Day * 1984 Twin Reverb II Amp Head * Need some h
Posted: Tue Jun 19, 2012 6:46 am
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bluesky636 wrote:
shimmilou wrote:
Toppscore wrote:
...
So, what does my 1954 Fender 4x10 Bassman have?
My 1968 Twin Reverb 2x12 have?
My 1984 Twin Reverb II amp head have?
What changed in 1986? Why do many say 1986 was the last P2P amps?...

Look for yourself. Then you'll know that "many" don't know WTF they are talking about. There are still "boutique" amps that use PTP, but Fender production amps have used eyelet boards long before '86. Every layout drawing for any Bassman that I have seen has an eyelet board. Maybe there are different understandings of exactly what PTP really is. :idea:
There is only one understanding as far as I have ever been concerned:
Point-to-point:
Eyelet board:
Turret board:
Printed circuit board:


Thanks, Bill.
To me, the Green PCBoard is the defining moment.
All the types of soldering and circuitry done BEFORE the green PCBoards are considered
by the unknowledgeable public to be hand-wired or point-2-point. Wrong as they are,
you cannot change all of the boutique marketers, EBay sellers, etc who do use the
terms incorrectly to make more margin and get higher costs.

Also, when one solders a single wire from one point to another point,
even on a modern amp, that can be considered as at least one PTP.
And if it was hand soldered, that can be considered hand wired on modern amps.

Modern amps have SOME PTP and SOME hand soldering. But, not 100%.

Therefore, I declare the easiest way to change the industry
and change bad advertising from marketers . . . . is to ask the question:
DOES THAT AMP HAVE A GREEN PRINTED CIRCUIT BOARD OR NOT?


Does this work for you? Toppscore 8)

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Post subject: Re: New Amp Day * 1984 Twin Reverb II Amp Head * Need some h
Posted: Tue Jun 19, 2012 7:12 am
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shimmilou wrote:
Call or email Fender for a free PDF copy of owners manual and schematic from the archives, the Twin Reverb II is listed.

http://www.fender.com/support/articles/fender-guitar-and-bass-amplifiers-owners-manuals-and-schematics-hard-copy-archives


Thanks, Shimmilou.
I sent Fender a request for both the user manual and the schematics.
If successful, I will gladly let you know.

It is the user manual I want for all the switching and rear port possibilities.

Much appreciated. Toppscore :)

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Post subject: Re: New Amp Day * 1984 Twin Reverb II Amp Head * Need some h
Posted: Tue Jun 19, 2012 7:59 am
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No, that doesn't work for me. Like we have said, the use of "green printed-circuit boards" is not the deciding line between PTP and modern. Instead of making up new and even more confusing nonsense, let's stick with reality. The old fifth-grade argument of "but, everyone else is calling it PTP, why can't I?", still isn't valid.

Are you not paying attention? Opinion means nothing as far as what point to point actually means. Point to point means there are no circuit boards of any kind. No eyelet boards, no turret boards, no printed circuit boards in a point to point amp. Hand wired does not mean point to point. An amp with a printed circuit board can still be wired by hand, and that doesn't make it point to point.

If it has an eyelet board, it is not point to point.
If it has a turret board, it is not point to point.
If it has a printed circuit board, it is not point to point.
Hand assembling an amp with an eyelet board is still not point to point.
All eyelet board and turret board amps are hand wired and hand soldered, and that doesn't equal point to point. The printed circuit board is the only one that can be machine assembled and machine soldered.

Just because many people have a misunderstanding, doesn't change the actual meaning one bit. And the 2% hand wiring in modern amps doesn't equal point to point, nor is it considered "hand wired" either.

It doesn't get any more clear than the pictures posted by bluesky636 and BMW2002Ti as to what PTP actually is.

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Post subject: Re: New Amp Day * 1984 Twin Reverb II Amp Head * Need some h
Posted: Tue Jun 19, 2012 8:21 am
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shimmilou wrote:
No, that doesn't work for me. Like we have said, the use of "green printed-circuit boards" is not the deciding line between PTP and modern. Instead of making up new and even more confusing nonsense, let's stick with reality. The old fifth-grade argument of "but, everyone else is calling it PTP, why can't I?", still isn't valid.

Are you not paying attention? Opinion means nothing as far as what point to point actually means. Point to point means there are no circuit boards of any kind. No eyelet boards, no turret boards, no printed circuit boards in a point to point amp. Hand wired does not mean point to point. An amp with a printed circuit board can still be wired by hand, and that doesn't make it point to point.

If it has an eyelet board, it is not point to point.
If it has a turret board, it is not point to point.
If it has a printed circuit board, it is not point to point.
Hand assembling an amp with an eyelet board is still not point to point.
All eyelet board and turret board amps are hand wired and hand soldered, and that doesn't equal point to point. The printed circuit board is the only one that can be machine assembled and machine soldered.

Just because many people have a misunderstanding, doesn't change the actual meaning one bit. And the 2% hand wiring in modern amps doesn't equal point to point, nor is it considered "hand wired" either.

It doesn't get any more clear than the pictures posted by bluesky636 and BMW2002Ti as to what PTP actually is.


Unfortunately, "point-to-point" has become the "kleenex" and "zerox" of the guitar amp world. It sounds neat and impresses all those with more money than technical savvy. I really don't care what some people choose to call the various types of amp construction. They can call them all "Bob" for all I care. The members here who actually design, build, modify, or repair amps know and understand the distinctions between the different types of amp construction. All other are poseurs.

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Post subject: Re: New Amp Day * 1984 Twin Reverb II Amp Head * Need some h
Posted: Tue Jun 19, 2012 8:32 am
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Aaaaaamen! 8)

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Post subject: Re: New Amp Day * 1984 Twin Reverb II Amp Head * Need some h
Posted: Tue Jun 19, 2012 8:46 am
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shimmilou wrote:
Aaaaaamen! 8)


+2!

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