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Post subject: Re: Speaker Breakup * Amp Power * Impedence Load Requirement
Posted: Wed Jun 20, 2012 11:12 pm
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nedorama wrote:
Different types of distortion - Power tube and speaker.
Into the same speakers...
A dimed 50 watt amp starts to introduce power tube distortion, which adds a lot more harmonic content and other great stuff to interact with the speaker distortion. Sort of 1+1=3.
a 100 watt amp at 1/2 power isn't warming up the tubes, so you're getting only speaker distortion. 1+0=1.
Just need to be careful that you don't overpower an underrated speaker. There are great 80 watt speakers from Weber, Warehouse Speakers, etc. that can handle high wattages yet have great breakup and sound. You could also rip a Celestion Blue to shreds hooked up to a Showman.
remember - under powering = OK. Overpowering = be careful.


Thanks, NeoDrama.
So, can you describe the sound from a speaker
when the "amp is not" distorted compared to when the "amp is" distorted?
My question refers to a speaker that does not break-up when the
amp is distorting or not.

Toppscore 8)

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Post subject: Re: Speaker Breakup * Amp Power * Impedence Load Requirement
Posted: Thu Jun 21, 2012 1:56 pm
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No. :wink:

Reason being that there are so many variables in what a non-distorting amp sounds like with myriad brands, numbers and configurations of speakers.

Size of speaker(s)?
Number of speakers?
Alnico or ceramic or neodymium?
Open or closed cab?
Cab material?
Damped or undamped?
Speaker wattage rating?
Same or mixed speakers in an enclosure?
Size of room/distance from back wall/material of back wall?
Listening direct or through a microphone? Which microphone/preamp/etc?

Instead of trying to come up with exacts, I'd do what the rest of us do - try speakers for yourself and if you like it, great. if not, take them out, try something else until you're happy. What a non-distorting amp + breaking up speaker sounds like will be described 10 different ways by 8 different people.

Not trying to be an $@!, but tone is so subjective to begin with this is not a scientific pursuit. It's like asking which color is best for your car or tele.

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Post subject: Re: Speaker Breakup * Amp Power * Impedence Load Requirement
Posted: Thu Jun 21, 2012 6:06 pm
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Well said, Nedo!!! Art

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Post subject: Re: Speaker Breakup * Amp Power * Impedence Load Requirement
Posted: Fri Jun 22, 2012 1:40 am
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nedorama wrote:
No. :wink:

Reason being that there are so many variables in what a non-distorting amp sounds like with myriad brands, numbers and configurations of speakers.

Size of speaker(s)?
Number of speakers?
Alnico or ceramic or neodymium?
Open or closed cab?
Cab material?
Damped or undamped?
Speaker wattage rating?
Same or mixed speakers in an enclosure?
Size of room/distance from back wall/material of back wall?
Listening direct or through a microphone? Which microphone/preamp/etc?

Instead of trying to come up with exacts, I'd do what the rest of us do - try speakers for yourself and if you like it, great. if not, take them out, try something else until you're happy. What a non-distorting amp + breaking up speaker sounds like will be described 10 different ways by 8 different people.

Not trying to be an $@!, but tone is so subjective to begin with this is not a scientific pursuit. It's like asking which color is best for your car or tele.


Thanks. Will do.
Never gave it a thought before.
Will add the tests to a list of tones to investigate.
I have a Weber Mass 200, that might help test one aspect of amp loads.
Take care. Toppscore 8)

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Post subject: Re: Speaker Breakup * Amp Power * Impedence Load Requirement
Posted: Fri Jun 22, 2012 8:04 am
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No problem. Let us know what you test and what works out for you.

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Post subject: Re: Speaker Breakup * Amp Power * Impedence Load Requirement
Posted: Fri Jun 22, 2012 3:34 pm
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nedorama wrote:
No problem. Let us know what you test and what works out for you.

How do you like your Bandmaster?
I am considering a Fender 1x15 Vibrasonic, from the same Fender amp series.
Toppscore 8)

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Post subject: Re: Speaker Breakup * Amp Power * Impedence Load Requirement
Posted: Fri Jun 22, 2012 4:34 pm
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Love it.

It's a 1965 that I picked up cheap as it had been thrashed; non-original transformers, weird wiring experiments, etc. Dropped in Mercury transformers, back to AB763 spec. For fun, I had Newell Cabs make a 2x12 combo for the "amp that never was."

For indoor shows, 40 watts is plenty loud. I have a Dr. Z Brake Lite screwed to the inside wall that lets me dial down the amp power tubes to the speakers at the beginning of a show (less people) and then open her up as the crowd gets fuller.

Happy with the Weber Californias, but after putting a pair of Warehouse G12C's in my Showman cabinet, I may have to try others.

If you search the site, theres plenty of listings I've had that shows exactly what i did on the Bandmaster and the showman, as well as what kind of shows I use each for.

in the past 4 years I've rescued/restored two vintage Fenders and 1 new Dr. Z; not sure I can keep up with this pace!

Next on the list that I'm always on the lookout for:
Tremolux
Pro Reverb pre 1975
brownface Princeton

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Post subject: Re: Speaker Breakup * Amp Power * Impedence Load Requirement
Posted: Fri Jun 22, 2012 5:39 pm
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nedorama wrote:
Love it. It's a 1965 that I picked up cheap as it had been thrashed; non-original transformers, weird wiring experiments, etc. Dropped in Mercury transformers, back to AB763 spec. For fun, I had Newell Cabs make a 2x12 combo for the "amp that never was."

For indoor shows, 40 watts is plenty loud. I have a Dr. Z Brake Lite screwed to the inside wall that lets me dial down the amp power tubes to the speakers at the beginning of a show (less people) and then open her up as the crowd gets fuller.

Happy with the Weber Californias, but after putting a pair of Warehouse G12C's in my Showman cabinet, I may have to try others.

If you search the site, theres plenty of listings I've had that shows exactly what i did on the Bandmaster and the showman, as well as what kind of shows I use each for.

Next on the list that I'm always on the lookout for:
Tremolux, Pro Reverb pre 1975, brownface Princeton


Let me get this right.
You have a 1965 Blackface Amp Head chassis
installed into a Newell 2x12 cab from Never Never Land
with an attenuator. Got it. Cool options.

***But, I am not getting the "Showman" aspect. Please help me better understand.

I just purchased this 1963 Tremolux. Awesome Fender Tone/Sound. Do it for yourself.
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Post subject: Re: Speaker Breakup * Amp Power * Impedence Load Requirement
Posted: Sat Jun 23, 2012 8:48 pm
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Quote:
Let me get this right.
You have a 1965 Blackface Amp Head chassis
installed into a Newell 2x12 cab from Never Never Land
with an attenuator. Got it. Cool options.

***But, I am not getting the "Showman" aspect. Please help me better understand.


Besides the 65 Bandmaster, I also bought a 65 Showman that was in even worse shape and brought it back to AB763 specs. Separately, I bought a 64-65 Bandmaster Cabinet and so the showman head goes through that cab, which has 2 Warehouse Speakers G12C's in it, no cab damping material.

I also own a 74 Princeton that needed minimal work (new Weber, new tubes) and a 77 Princeton Reverb that I had a Deluxe Reverb Transformer put in, had the PI matched up, new tubes as well, and a new speaker.

Congrats on the 63 Tremolux - it's one of the next ones on my list, although not sure I'll be able to afford it in that good condition...

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Post subject: Re: Speaker Breakup * Amp Power * Impedence Load Requirement
Posted: Sat Jun 23, 2012 10:01 pm
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nedorama wrote:
Besides the 65 Bandmaster, I also bought a 65 Showman that was in even worse shape and brought it back to AB763 specs. Separately, I bought a 64-65 Bandmaster Cabinet and so the showman head goes through that cab, which has 2 Warehouse Speakers G12C's in it, no cab damping material.

Congrats on the 63 Tremolux - it's one of the next ones on my list, although not sure I'll be able to afford it in that good condition...
Thanks for the Tremolux compliment.


I'm learning, as I tend to take some things literally.
Your 64/65 "Bandmaster Cabinet" is really a 2x12/4ohm speaker cabinet, right?
You're using the 2x12/4ohm speaker cabinet to be driven by the Showman amp head, right?


Thanks for your share.
I'm interested as I own a lot of this equipment. Toppscore :)

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Post subject: Re: Speaker Breakup * Amp Power * Impedence Load Requirement
Posted: Sun Jun 24, 2012 8:37 am
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Cab may have originally been 2x12 4 ohm, but is now wired as an 8 ohm for the Showman.

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Post subject: Re: Speaker Breakup * Amp Power * Impedence Load Requirement
Posted: Tue Jun 26, 2012 4:15 am
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nedorama wrote:
Cab may have originally been 2x12 4 ohm, but is now wired as an 8 ohm for the Showman.


That picture of the 2x12 Bandmaster
sure looks like a 1995 Zinky creation.
Good job :)

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