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Post subject: Speaker Breakup * Amp Power * Impedence Load Requirements
Posted: Mon Jun 11, 2012 7:30 pm
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aclempoppi wrote:
Seems to me, we're talking about three aspects of the amp, concerning a master volume. Pre amp distortion, power amp saturation, and speaker break-up. The fun part is, that they are seperate, yet all related ! Art

BMW2002Ti wrote:
My point is speaker breakup independent of the amp. In other words, say a pair of D120F breakups up at 100 watts RMS. It would take roughly 100 watts RMS, regardless if the amp was a Marshall, Hiwatt, Fender, etc. And whether the amp had tubes or solid state.

bluesky636 wrote:
Speaker construction and power handling capability determine when a speaker will break up. But achieving speaker breakup requires POWER which means the amp will be quite loud. You are not going to get speaker breakup with the master volume turned down so low that the power tubes are not putting out any significant power.

***I took a couple of quotes to start an new thread. You can sue me :lol: :shock:

I bought a Weber Mass 200 attenuator and had some very interesting discussions
with Weber regarding the management of amp wattage & amp ohm handshaking
towards speakers and how amp output can be managed as well by an attenuator.

Also, discussed was how one can turn up amp volumes to screaming levels that would
break up speakers, only to have an attenuator or a Master Volume or a headphone jack/set
alter the amp's wattage and ohm output before reaching the speaker, if even reaching a
speaker in the first place.

This is a very interesting subject. Personally, I learned some interesting things from
Weber and I have some questions as well. Also, I’d be interested towards learning
from your experiences and knowledge. Thank you. Toppscore 8)

Weber (a huge suppler of speakers, speaker cabinets, amps & attenuators) told me that
ALL amps need/require speaker loads or an impeding dummy load when powered on.
***Funny, as I'm not sure if “powered on” means before or after I flick the stand-by switch
on after the amp warms up (please add your thoughts).

Weber states combo amps already have natural speaker load when powered on (obviously).

My concern(s) are towards this issue are with the many amp heads I've purchased for
a combined project using with various speaker cabinet setups with various amp heads.
News to me was that Weber declared I should never have me amp heads powered on without
a speaker or dummy load (attenuator) connected. Good to know ~ never turn-on
any amp head without a speaker load or an attenuated dummy load of some sort.
Apparently, the amp will burn-up, blow fuses, ruin tubes, ruin output transformers
and make you very unhappy :oops: Maybe some of you can share what other damage
can be caused by an amp head turned on with no speaker load attached???

Also, seems to me as I turn my amp power on, with the standby switch down,
there is not output, just the tubes warming up. As soon as I flick the standby switch,
“all systems go” and I had better have speakers or my Mass 200 attenuator connected.
Right?

What have you experienced? Please share your thoughts regarding as to what causes
speaker break-up, besides shear power form the amp. What relationship do the pre-amp tubes,
power tubes, power transformer & output transformer contribute to ultimate speaker break-up???

Thanks again. Toppscore 8)

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Post subject: Re: Speaker Breakup * Amp Power * Impedence Load Requirement
Posted: Mon Jun 11, 2012 10:42 pm
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You've got several different questions in that post, and all of them have long, complex answers with lots of conditions/variables. It would have been a lot better to post them as separate threads -- it gets confusing having multiple conversations about multiple topics at the same time.

Solid state amps don't need to have a load connected to the output. The higher the load impedance the less power the output transistors produce -- no load is infinite resistance, so the transistors simply don't put out any power.

Tube amps need a load connected when the output tubes are pumping signal into the output transformer. Roughly speaking, the tubes pump power into the output transformer's primary coil and then the power wants to come out of the secondary coil to the load. With an open circuit/infinite resistance at the secondary coil, the power gets bottled up in the primary and wants to come out somewhere. It may burn through the coil insulation and arc to ground, destroying the transformer. Or it may circulate back to the tubes and fry them, or other components.

(That's not really how induction works -- the electrons in the primary coil don't flow into the secondary coil and go out to the speaker, they just cause "sympathetic motion" in the secondary's electrons and make them flow through the speaker coil -- but it metaphorically explains what happens. When the primary's electrons can't transfer their energy to the electrons in the secondary coil, that energy has to go somewhere and will overheat the primary coil or some other components.)

Some amps (Fenders and some others) have shorting output jacks -- the hot and ground connect when no plug is inserted. That's a little easier on the amp when no load is connected. Other amps (Marshalls and some others) have regular output jacks that don't connect hot and ground when no plug is inserted -- those amps are much less tolerant of having no load.

In standby the tubes don't put out any signal so it doesn't matter if a load is connected. (Except for the risk of flipping the standby switch and starting to play without remembering to connect a load to the output.)

When not in standby ("play" mode"), if there's no signal going into the input of the amp it's fairly safe to not have a load connected -- the little bit of hiss that the output tubes pump into the transformer isn't enough to punch through the insulation or anything like that. But there's the risk that an unhealthy amp might make snapping, crackling, popping noises without any input signal, even with the amp volume knob(s) turned all the way down -- those might possibly be strong enough to cause damage.

The more power coming out of the tubes, the greater the risk. So if you have the amp volume set high there's more risk of damage with no load connected. And for that reason, most tube preamps don't care if they're not connected to a load. The tiny watt or so that they can put out simply isn't enough to damage anything.

It's possible for a tube amp to blow up immediately if you put signal through it without a load connected. But usually an amp with shorting jacks will survive for a few minutes without damage, even at full output.

Most people have stories about the time they ran a tube amp without a load and were lucky enough to not blow up the amp. Mine was back when I was 15 -- I disconnected the speaker plug on my silverface Deluxe Reverb to pull the chassis, and when I put it back together I accidentally plugged the speaker into the second output jack instead of the main jack. (The main jack is the shorting jack, but the second jack is a regular jack in parallel, so if there's nothing plugged into the main jack the transformer output is shorted even if there's a plug in the second jack.)

I turned on the amp, let it warm up in standby, plugged in my guitar, flipped the standby switch, hit a big power chord -- and was met with silence. Baffled, I turned the volume knob up a bit and tried again -- only to hear a quiet, buzzing, very distorted sound (it was actually the transformer singing -- magnetostriction -- it wasn't coming through the speaker). So then I looked at the back of the amp and realized what I had done, turned it off, put the plug in the main jack, and all was well with the world again. I miss that amp :cry: .

But there are plenty of people who can tell you stories about killing their Marshall or Vox by forgetting to plug in a speaker. So try very hard to never run a tube amp without a load, but if you do and it survives don't think it's a miracle, or think that the people who warn not to do it are wrong.

And that's what I meant about each question having long answers. My fingers hurt too much to keep typing about speaker distortion -- that's an even more complicated question.


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Post subject: Re: Speaker Breakup * Amp Power * Impedence Load Requirement
Posted: Mon Jun 11, 2012 11:06 pm
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strayedstrater wrote:
You've got several different questions in that post, and all of them have long, complex answers with lots of conditions/variables. It would have been a lot better to post them as separate threads -- it gets confusing having multiple conversations about multiple topics at the same time. And that's what I meant about each question having long answers. My fingers hurt too much to keep typing about speaker distortion -- that's an even more complicated question.


Holy Cow, Batman!!! That was a great fantastic response.
Thank you, StrayedStrater.

I am copying every golden word into my lifetime file notes.
Also, good to know about Solid State amps heads, as I have at least four.
Bottom line, no amp gets turned on without a load.

I put a variety of (similar for my needs) questions within this thread for a purpose.
Ultimately, without getting a Ph.D in physics or a BSEE in Tubtronics, fellow forum
members can share answers without gettin toooooo technical. The Weber technicians
and support personel were awesome with regards to my Mass 200w Attenuator questions,
which lead to powered amps with no speaker loads, to how speakers can or will not
"break-up" to how headphone jacks play a roll in speaker output circuitry,
and lately more about pre-tube distortion, amp saturation, master-volume management,
attenuator managed input/output results, . . . . . . .

. . . . . . and a real BiGGIE for me is how distorted signals
affect the sounds/tones coming out of speakers.


StrayedStrater, thanks again for your great input. Hope to hear from you, again.
Take care. Toppscore 8)

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Post subject: Re: Speaker Breakup * Amp Power * Impedence Load Requirement
Posted: Mon Jun 11, 2012 11:19 pm
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To flog the tired horse a bit more, Weber's advice wasn't "wrong". It's the "safe", "simple" answer, like saying "always connect an amp to the proper impedance" or sticking a "no owner serviceable parts inside" label on the back of the amp. In some cases it's perfectly safe to mismatch speaker impedance, and lots of amp owners are capable of working on their amps. But it's better to err on the side of caution and give a simple rule of thumb at first instead of confusing people by going into lots of detail.

I need to go walk my dog and then go to sleep. I'll be glad to prattle about speaker distortion tomorrow.


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Post subject: Re: Speaker Breakup * Amp Power * Impedence Load Requirement
Posted: Tue Jun 12, 2012 12:55 am
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Back again. The opening quotes about speaker distortion are correct, as far as they go. But there's a lot more to it than that.

Many speakers produce mild harmonic distortion even at low levels. Cones that are very stiff only break up at high volume -- as they approach maximum excursion -- and that break up is often somewhat harsh. But less stiff cones develop waves on their surface as the coil pushes and pulls. The distortion increases as the speaker is driven harder and it tends to be a smoother sweeter distortion. The cabinet can influence it too -- speakers run cleaner at all levels in tuned ported cabs than they do in open back cabs.

As an example, I can contrast an EVM12L in a TL806 ("Thiele") ported cab to an Eminence Texas Heat in an open back cab (about the size of a Hot Rod Deluxe). In a side by side A/B comparision using a Frenzel 10 watt Champ Plus (a "hot rodded" Champ --set up for a 6L6, plus a T/M/B tone stack and master volume) with the master all the way up and the preamp set about 1/4 of the way up, there's no audible distortion at all through the EVM. But there's a hint of wooliness through the Texas Heat. (The TxHeat is a 150 watt speaker, so like the EVM it's not under any stress handling just a watt or two.)

As you crank up the preamp, with the EVM you can clearly hear the preamp distortion kick in, then the power tube, then the transformer. But with the TxHeat it's a bit blurrier, more gradual, and it's harder to tell what's contributing what to the overall sound.

With just one 12AX7 there aren't a lot of gain stages to smooth out the preamp distortion. So the master works sort of like old silverface masters -- if you turn the master way down and the preamp way up to get low volume distortion, it tends to be harsh and buzzy. (With the master all the way up, the power tube starts to distort with the preamp about half way up, so as you turn up the preamp farther into its harsh range the increasing power tube distortion rounds off/warms up/smooths the buzziness.) With the EVM, master down/preamp up sounds terribly harsh, but it's much less crappy through the TxHeat.


I do hear the TxHeat creating harmonic distortion at low/moderate levels, but of course there are other types of distortion coloring speakers that make the EVM sound much different. Guitarists tend to only think of distortion in terms of soft/hard clipping, fuzziness, harmonic distortion. But there's dynamic distortion and frequency response distortion too -- any deviation from the input signal is "distortion". And they're really big factors in the tone of the speaker. More to follow.


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Post subject: Re: Speaker Breakup * Amp Power * Impedence Load Requirement
Posted: Tue Jun 12, 2012 2:45 am
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Sorry, my browser hates my long posts -- after a few thousand words, the text in the box starts jumping back as I type and I can't see what I type as I type it. Or maybe the forum software has a blowhard filter.

Back to dynamic distortion and frequency response distortion.

EVM's have massive monsterous magnets, huge voice coils, supple rubberized fabric surrounds, stiff cast frame, and stiff light curvilinear cones. They have a maximum excursion close to 1/2" -- about twice as far as most speakers. At low to moderate volumes their dynamic response is extremely accurate -- virtually no lag, no overshoot, no ringing, no compression at any frequency within their broad, deep operating range. At very high volume the bass can be driven into mild compression but mids and higher frequencies never compress. They're in the same broad class as ceramic JBLs, Altecs, Gauss, Cerwin Vega (Duane Allman switched from JBL alnicos to CV ceramic ER-123's), some Fanes.

At low to moderate levels ("moderate" volume for an EVM is very loud compared to most speakers -- their highest volumes are insanely loud) the frequency response is also very accurate across their operating range. The response goes deeper than most of its peers, but the upper highs are a bit rolled off.

That all combines to make a very clear, crisp, defined, revealing tone. It's not a "forgiving" speaker or a "euphonic" speaker -- what goes in comes out.

The Texas Heat is much different. Smaller magnet, smaller coil, less supple surround, stamped basket, less stiff cone. There's lag, overshoot, and ringing at all volumes. Strong transients get compressed even at very low volumes, and across-the-board compression is evident at moderate levels. The frequency response is much more uneven.

It's a much blurrier, rounder tone. It sweetens harshness, it has a softer edge to it. Even if it didn't add the harmonic distortion that it does, it would still be "distorted" in many ways at all volumes. EVM's can function well as PA speakers, even home HiFi speakers, the TxHeat adds way too much coloration.

One isn't better than the other. They both do beautiful tones that the other can't/can't do some tones that the other can. But if you want a specific sound, the flavor/coloration/deviation in response to the amp's output/"distortion" makes a big difference, and not just when pushing the speaker hard or near its max power handling. My G12-65's don't sound like my Private Jack at any volume. My JBL E120 doesn't sound like my Cerwin-Vega PS-12 at any volume, and none of them sound like my Blue Dog. Most of them sound like they add harmonic distortion even at low volume with it increasing as the volume goes up. And they all interact with amp (or pedal) distortion differently, sometimes in good ways, sometimes in bad ways (depending on your taste in good vs bad tones).

Enough for tonight -- it really is time for bed now.


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Post subject: Re: Speaker Breakup * Amp Power * Impedence Load Requirement
Posted: Tue Jun 12, 2012 3:30 am
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strayedstrater wrote:
In a side by side A/B comparision using a Frenzel 10 watt Champ Plus (a "hot rodded" Champ --set up for a 6L6, plus a T/M/B tone stack and master volume) with the master volume all the way up and the preamp set about 1/4 of the way up, there's no audible distortion at all through the EVM.

As you crank up the preamp, with the EVM you can clearly hear the preamp distortion kick in, then the power tube, then the transformer. But with the TxHeat it's a bit blurrier, more gradual, and it's harder to tell what's contributing what to the overall sound.

With just one 12AX7 there aren't a lot of gain stages to smooth out the preamp distortion. So the master works sort of like old silverface masters -- if you turn the master way down and the preamp way up to get low volume distortion, it tends to be harsh and buzzy. (With the master all the way up, the power tube starts to distort with the preamp about half way up, so as you turn up the preamp farther into its harsh range the increasing power tube distortion rounds off/warms up/smooths the buzziness). With the EVM, master down/preamp up sounds terribly harsh, but it's much less crappy through the TxHeat.
Thanks again, and I will focus more on the whole discussion, later. But, as I read
your comments, I am wondering if your term or concept of being able to turn the
"pre-amp" up or down, while adjusting the "master volume" up or down is unclear for me.

Let's see if I can use my words to substitute for better understanding on my part.

Do you mean: an amp with three volume controls (1974 Twin Reverb 1x12 Combo Amp)
1) Normal Channel Volume
2) Vibrato Channel Volume
3) Master Volume

When you suggest adjusting the Master Volume, that is obvious.
But, when you suggest to turn-up or turn-down the "pre-amp" volumes, are you using
the "Normal Volume" and the "Vibrato Volume" as "pre-amp volume controls" :?: :?: :?:

Therefore, within your discussion, when you state to adjust the pre-amp volumes,
you are specifically indicating to adjust the Normal & Vibrato volumes? Right?

PLMK. Thank you. Toppscore

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Post subject: Re: Speaker Breakup * Amp Power * Impedence Load Requirement
Posted: Tue Jun 12, 2012 4:30 am
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Strayedstrater, I hope you don't mind me referring to you as SS from now on, I find your discussion on speakers very interesting. I was wondering if you have a favorite pairing of different speakers that work well together or do you prefer to keep speaker pairs the same in a blackface twin reverb.

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Post subject: Re: Speaker Breakup * Amp Power * Impedence Load Requirement
Posted: Tue Jun 12, 2012 6:26 am
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Great job strayedstrater! I agree on all counts. Now, go ice down those fingers. :lol:
8)

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Post subject: Re: Speaker Breakup * Amp Power * Impedence Load Requirement
Posted: Tue Jun 12, 2012 8:18 am
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Thanks for the kind words everyone.

Toppscore, my Frenzel is a single channel amp. One preamp knob, one master volume knob, and one knob each for treble, middle, and bass. I was describing the settings for very clean sound (pre low/master high) vs settings for low volume distortion (pre high, master low).

Arc-n-spark, sometimes I like mixing speakers but I've got very little experience with Twin Reverbs.

Before people start asking me for reviews about some of the speakers I've mentioned in passing, I should explain my situation. I have lots of high volume experience with EVMs, Texas Heats, V30s, G12-80s, and various Eminence, Oxford, Utah, and CTS speakers. But I moved into an apartment a few years ago and I've acquired the other speakers I mentioned since then. These apartments are well built -- not paper thin walls -- and my neighbors seem to enjoy my playing so I can push the volume a little bit, but other than my subwatt Killer Ant I can't dime any of my amps without getting evicted. I haven't been in a band in over a decade and I only go play out at jams a few times a year (and then I usually take speakers that I'm familiar with). So I haven't had the opportunity yet to spend a lot of quality time with all of them at really high volume, or in big rooms. I don't know how most of them cut through in a band situation. Some speakers don't change character too much at high volume -- you have to pump 100 watts or so into an EVM to get the bass compression. Below that they sound pretty much the same driven by 0.10 watt as when driven by 50 watts. Other speakers are like Jekyll and Hyde -- they turn into completely different beasts at high volume. G12-80s are like that -- at living room volumes they sound thin, bright, harsh, but cranked up the bass blooms and they turn into fairly warm sounding speakers.

So I can't give complete reviews of most of my speakers, just about how they perform at low to moderate volumes. But that just reinforces my point that speakers "distort"/alter/color the amp's output even at low to moderate volumes.


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Post subject: Re: Speaker Breakup * Amp Power * Impedence Load Requirement
Posted: Tue Jun 12, 2012 11:57 am
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It's not relating to a Twin Reverb,but for my 2 speaker Fender amps,I like to mix an alnico magnet speaker with a ceramic mag speaker,the difference in the two can either sound really good,great,or neither and will need to be removed to try something else.
Speakers are like seasoning,there's so many different types nowadays that if you want to, you can try many different combinations...but like strayed strater said,the difference between low volume and high volume sound can be fairly extreme at times,so for a gigging musician you have to try them out not once,but often in several different sized rooms and volumes to get the tone you're chasing.


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Post subject: Re: Speaker Breakup * Amp Power * Impedence Load Requirement
Posted: Fri Jun 15, 2012 6:44 pm
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Speaker breakup is easier to achieve when your speaker wattage rating is closer to your amp's wattage.
For example, a 15 watt Princeton will never push a 100 watt Jensen Blackbird into much breakup. However, a 25 watt Jensen P10N will breakup under a Princeton. The Celestion Blue Alnicos are 15 watt speakers and breakup easily under the power of a Princeton.

But great speaker tone is elusive at low volumes. You need enough volume, IMHO, to shake the cabinet and rough up the power tubes and speakers. :)


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Post subject: Re: Speaker Breakup * Amp Power * Impedence Load Requirement
Posted: Fri Jun 15, 2012 6:48 pm
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Rebelsoul wrote:
Speakers are like seasoning,there's so many different types nowadays that if you want to, you can try many different combinations...but like strayed strater said,the difference between low volume and high volume sound can be fairly extreme at times.


A lot of the difference has to do with using enough power to "move" the baffle and cabinet. That can add a bit of bass.


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Post subject: Re: Speaker Breakup * Amp Power * Impedence Load Requirement
Posted: Wed Jun 20, 2012 6:54 am
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Guitarist1983 wrote:
Speaker breakup is easier to achieve when your speaker wattage rating is closer to your amp's wattage.
For example, a 15 watt Princeton will never push a 100 watt Jensen Blackbird into much breakup. However, a 25 watt Jensen P10N will breakup under a Princeton. The Celestion Blue Alnicos are 15 watt speakers and breakup easily under the power of a Princeton.
But great speaker tone is elusive at low volumes. You need enough volume, IMHO, to shake the cabinet and rough up the power tubes and speakers. :)


It make sense, but why???
I can see diming a 50w amp versus taking a 100w amp to 50w.
More stress on the 50w amp, right?

But, the same speaker is getting a 50w load, either way. Right?
So, why would the speaker break-up earlier or better with the lower 50w amp?

PLMK. Thank you.

Personally, I've a lot of amps from 22w to 135w and am preparing
to work them with differnet speaker cabinet configurations. Toppscore 8)

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Post subject: Re: Speaker Breakup * Amp Power * Impedence Load Requirement
Posted: Wed Jun 20, 2012 6:24 pm
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Different types of distortion - Power tube and speaker.

Into the same speakers...
A dimed 50 watt amp starts to introduce power tube distortion, which adds a lot more harmonic content and other great stuff to interact with the speaker distortion. Sort of 1+1=3.

a 100 watt amp at 1/2 power isn't warming up the tubes, so you're getting only speaker distortion. 1+0=1.

Just need to be careful that you don't overpower an underrated speaker. There are great 80 watt speakers from Weber, Warehouse Speakers, etc. that can handle high wattages yet have great breakup and sound. You could also rip a Celestion Blue to shreds hooked up to a Showman.

remember - under powering = OK. Overpowering = be careful.

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