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Post subject: Re: 1954 Fender Twin on ebay
Posted: Fri Jun 29, 2012 12:24 am
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phansford wrote:
I post this with some trepidation as I don't want to make my good friend Retroverbial go into convulsions seeing this Gibson amp. All that said.... I do think he approves... he just like giving me the business about this non-Fender :lol:


Not to worry, Phil......there were plenty of great non-Fender amps built during the 50's, '60s, and '70s.

Supro, Gibson, Guild, Silvertone, Standel, Ampeg, Valco, Alamo, Teisco, Plush, Sunn, Orange, Sound City, Kustom, the Rickenbacker Transonics, the list is endless.

It was only Darwin's theory of natural selection (ie: "survival of the fittest") that put Leo's designs at the top of the food chain.

8)

Arjay

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Post subject: Re: 1954 Fender Twin on ebay
Posted: Fri Jun 29, 2012 12:41 am
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Mr. SD-1 wrote:
That Bassman is a real gem. It appears to be fixed bias whereas the Twin is cathode biased. Very rare. Do you have a schematic? I would love to find out what sort of tone stack and phase inverter circuit you've got in there.

Thank you, Mr SD-1 :wink:
This is the third oldest known 4x10 amp and/or speaker cabinet of any manufacturer.
It was built in November 1954. One of 187 built during November/December 1954.
I did quite a bit of research on Tweed Bassmans from 5B6 1952 till 5F6A 1960.
It is my belief that this Fender "DK" 5D6 has a different circuit than the Fender "DL" 5D6.
It is my belief that the December "DL" 5D6 slipped into January "EA" 1955 "5D6A"
with the same configuration (no reason to change design between December 31st and
January 1st. Then the 5D6A became the 5E6 around April 1955.

Therefore, I believe there are three circuit designs =
1) November "DK" 5D6 1954
2) December "DL" 5D6 1954 which blended into the 5D6A
3) April "ED" 5E6 1955

The 5D6A and the 5E6 are heavily document schematically.
There is no known 5D6 “DK” schematic documentation.
I believe the December “DL” 5D6 is mis-named or mis-identified and should
have been named “Fender 5D6A “DL” December 1954 Bassman.

Reasons:
The 1954 "DK" 5D6 has no documentation as less than 90 were made.
The "DK" Bassmans were numbered from 700-790. This numbering system is a
continuation of numbers from the 1953/1954 Fender 5B6 1x15 Bassmans which
Fender ended production during May 1954 with the serial numbers ending at #650.
Then Fender started in November 1954 with the #700 serial numbers.

Probably the first November "DK" 5D6 Bassmans were made as experimental
prototype beta-runs and vender/supplier reviews, or tests, etc. These first “DK”
Bassmans were not for sale and were probably “given” to artists, musicians,
groups and to Fender employees for “field testing” to fully run the amps “all out”
for the uncovering of issues & complaints.

Fender had to begin preparing marketing, advertising, packaging, manuals,
vendor supply commitments, dealer programs, and production logistics
to prepare for the upcoming 1954 Christmas season, January 1955 music
instrument trade shows & conventions and to begin shipping products to
Fender’s 1955 retail dealer network

I believe that Fender got final results from the ninety (90) November “DK” 1954
Bassmans and made final changes at the end of November. Then, the new and
improved final Bassman that Fender could rely upon for marketing and for the
preparation towards the 1955 year, was set. Fender changed the serial numbers
for their December “DL” 1954 design to #001 and made 87 of the final design
to prepare as samples and demos for the 1954 Christmas and the 1955 campaign.

As January production developed, Fender changed the 5D6A “EA” 1955
serial numbers to begin with #101 to start the new year.

So, to answer your schematic question, I believe the December “DL” 5D6 1954
schematic design is the same as the January “5D6A” 5E6 1955 schematic design.

Because of tremendous misunderstanding regarding Fender’s serial numbering systems,
the “DK” & DL” shipments, and product transition changes Fender made between
the 1954 5B6 “DD” 1x15 Bassmans to the 1955 5E6 “ED” 4x10 Bassmans . . . . . .
that many Fender historians, guitarist, clone/boutique makers, incorrectly believe
what actually happened and then apply this mis-information towards boutique products
and advertising & marketing claims that are not nearly correct or 100% accurate.

I've many quotes, interviews & references towards the above information provided.
I published this information:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bassman
All of the Wiki content from the top down to (but not including) the “Reissues” section
is a condensed version of what I've discovered, uncovered and researched. I'm always
open to thoughts, comments, suggestions and discussions as to where I'm wrong or
off-base, etc. But, from 1954 to 2011, the used mis-information was mostly completely
backwards, not published correctly nor chained together correctly to make any real sense of it all.
Hope this helps you. Toppscore 8)

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Last edited by Toppscore on Fri Jun 29, 2012 9:00 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Post subject: Re: 1954 Fender Twin on ebay
Posted: Fri Jun 29, 2012 5:28 am
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Topp I would love to see a pic of all these fantastic amps all lined up together. That would be very Cool.


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Post subject: Re: 1954 Fender Twin on ebay
Posted: Fri Jun 29, 2012 7:08 am
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+1000

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Post subject: Re: 1954 Fender Twin on ebay
Posted: Fri Jun 29, 2012 1:50 pm
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In many cases, the tube chart is not the most accurate way to identify a Fender amp. For example, numerous blonde Tremolux heads have 6G9-A tube charts, but the actual circuit is fully 6G9-B. What matters most is the actual circuit and components. A circuit tracing of Toppscore's amp would be most valuable. Perhaps take some high res photos of the components and wiring inside, and I could trace the circuit.

It's also worth noting that Fender was likely devoting a great deal of attention to the Stratocaster release in 1954, so I suspect that work on the Bassman was not a top priority in early-mid months of that year.

I have been comparing the 5D8 Twin circuit with the 5D6-A and 5E6 Bassmans. The Twin has a slightly more advanced arrangement with 4 inputs and a more developed baxandall style Treble and Bass control network. The Twin also has a self balancing paraphase inverter, while the Bassman has the same Cathodyne inverter found in the later Deluxe. The 5D6-A and 5E6 both use negative feedback to reduce gain around the cathode follower, whereas the Twin and later Bassmans do not use any negative feedback here. Also, the Twin uses beefier Triad transformers to handle the increased current of the cathode biasing. The Bassmans are fixed bias using a selenium rectifier which could be a health hazard.


Last edited by Mr. SD-1 on Fri Jun 29, 2012 2:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post subject: Re: 1954 Fender Twin on ebay
Posted: Fri Jun 29, 2012 2:42 pm
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Mr. SD-1 wrote:
In many cases, the tube chart is not the most accurate way to identify a Fender amp. For example, numerous blonde Tremolux heads have 6G9-A tube charts, but the actual circuit is fully 6G9-B. What matters most is the actual circuit and component values. A circuit tracing of Toppscore's amp would be the most valuable piece of evidence supporting the existence of a real 5D6. Perhaps take some high res photos of the components and wiring inside, and I could trace the circuit.

I agree about tube charts in general.
But, the eleven known 1954 5D6 "DK" "DL" 4x10 Bassmans . . . .
ALL have "5D6" on the tube chart, rather than "5D6A".
ALL have either "DK" or "DL" on the tube charts.
ALL "DK" tube charts are numbered 0701-0783
ALL "DL" tube charts are numbered 0001-0089
There is one exception that is #0033 with a "DK" stamp, rather than a "DL" stamp

Most amps are in sad shape. Mine is the second best and is a working amp. It was
bench tested in 2011. A museum quality Bassman sold in 2/2011 on EBay for $8400.
It is now in the Orient. Most of the 5D6's have been recovered or are missing quite
a bit of original parts and components.

My November "DK" 5D6 has the correct Jensen 2204xx codes on the P10R speakers,
output/power transformers & choke are with correct date codes. Mine is unusual in that
it has a date correct Chicago Transformer, not a Triad. We feel Fender may have tried
different vendor/suppliers during the first run of 5D6 amps in November 1954. Who knows?


"Of the original 172 quantity 1954 “5D6” Bassmans manufactured by Fender, only five of the original first designed 1954 Fender “5D6” “DK” 4x10 Bassmans (SN#0700-0783) have survived. There are six known second generation version “5D6” “DL” 4x10 Bassmans (SN#0001-SN#0089) still existing today. Sadly, there are only approximately four of the eleven 1954 Fender "5D6" Bassmans that are in "near original good" condition with original tweed covering, original wood cabinet integrity, original power transformer, original output transformer, original choke, original face-plate panel with original "chicken head" control knobs, original four Jensen P10R speakers, original legible tube chart, minimal rust and original wiring. There are some acceptable Bassman electronic parts that are naturally expected to be replaced due to age: leather handle, power & rectifier tubes, some capacitors, some resistors, some electrolytes, etc. Typical tubes that might be replaced: two quantity 12AY7 pre-amp tubes, two quantity 6L6G power-tubes, and two quantity 5U4GA rectifier tubes.

The earliest documented existing “5D6” Bassmans are: #0701 (DK), #0745 (DK), #0769 (DK), #0780 (DK) (sold on eBay November 2006), and #0783 (DK). The earliest second series 1954 “5D6” Bassman serial numbers known to exist are: #0013 (DL), #0033 (DL), #0035 (DK), #0075 (DL), #0077 (DL), and #0089 (DL) (sold on EBay during February 2011 to an overseas Asian buyer). These very rare few 1954 “5D6” 4x10 Fender Bassmans are known to sound better than the revered 1959 5F6-A 4x10 Bassman amplifiers.

To share how unknown the 1954 “5D6” Bassman amplifier has been until late 2011, the highly resourced and widely renown authors John Sprung and John Teagle (Fender Amp: The First Fifty Years – 1995) published and stated within their book: "reportedly there is a ‘5D6’ model Bassman". In another very recent 2007 Fender book "The Soul Of Tone - Celebrating 60 Years of Fender Amps" (Tom Wheeler – September 2007, page #170), Tom Wheeler, writing about the extreme rarity of the 1954 “5D6” Bassman prototypes, quotes Peter Tate (“5D6” Bassman owner) as stating that he (Peter Tate) only knows the existence of one other “5D6” Bassman amplifier. The above two published quotes from two highly resourced and respected Fender history books, truly demonstrate the lack of awareness, knowledge and history of the extremely rare 1954 Fender “5D6” 4x10 Bassman amplifiers.

The eighty-three quantity November 1954 Fender “5D6 DK” 4x10 Bassmans were the very first “Tweed” 4x10 Bassman prototypes developed. The eighty-nine quantity December 1954 “5D6 DL” Bassmans paved the way for the 1955 “5D6-A" 4x10 Fender Bassmans. The "5D6-A" Bassmans lead directly to the 1955 "5E6" Bassmans which were the first to be nationally advertised and promoted to guitarists, bass players, accordion players, steel-pedal guitarist and to Fender retail dealers nation wide."

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Post subject: Re: 1954 Fender Twin on ebay
Posted: Fri Jun 29, 2012 2:48 pm
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duplicate

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Last edited by Toppscore on Sat Jun 30, 2012 10:32 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Post subject: Re: 1954 Fender Twin on ebay
Posted: Fri Jun 29, 2012 3:02 pm
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I just spent some time investigating the 5D8 Twin circuit in comparison to the 5D6-A and 5E6 Bassman schematics. I edited my last post to include the circuit differences, which you might find interesting. If you like the 5D6 sound, I think you'll love the 5D8.


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Post subject: Re: 1954 Fender Twin on ebay
Posted: Fri Jun 29, 2012 3:04 pm
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tbazzone wrote:
Topp I would love to see a pic of all these fantastic amps all lined up together. That would be very Cool.


+10K..but I think you got ignored :!:

T2

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Post subject: Re: 1954 Fender Twin on ebay
Posted: Fri Jun 29, 2012 3:09 pm
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I should also mention... based on the schematics I've seen, the 5D6-A circuit is identical to the 5E6, except the 47K resistors in the 5D6-A were changed to 56K in the 5E6.


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Post subject: Re: 1954 Fender Twin on ebay
Posted: Sat Jun 30, 2012 6:59 am
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Mr. SD-1 wrote:
I should also mention... based on the schematics I've seen, the 5D6-A circuit is identical to the 5E6, except the 47K resistors in the 5D6-A were changed to 56K in the 5E6.


Exactly. There may be some more significant mods between
the official 5D6A and the 5E6 than resistors, so be open minded.

Also, again, I believe that the 1954 Fender "DL" December 5D6 Bassman
is the same circuit as the 5D6A. Simply because there was no time to make
changes from the late December 1954 5D6 to the January 1955 5D6A,
except for the tube chart paperwork.

Therefore, the missing schematics for the Fender Bassman Amps
are the 1954 "DK" November 5D6 Bassmans. Sort of the missing link.
Someday soon, I will record the sounds from my 1954 "DK" 5D6 Bassman.
Also, I may take super close photos of the layout, or maybe I may try
to totally copy the layout as my first attempt at making a clone amp :shock:
Probably the same day I take a family photo. Till then - hahaha :)

Toppscore 8)

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Post subject: Re: 1954 Fender Twin on ebay
Posted: Sat Jun 30, 2012 9:37 am
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tbazzone wrote:
Topp I would love to see a pic of all these fantastic amps all lined up together. That would be very Cool.


Agreed!!!!


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Post subject: Re: 1954 Fender Twin on ebay
Posted: Sat Jun 30, 2012 10:08 am
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Topp Please you have listed so many wonderful amps that you own I think many of us would love to see a pic of them all together. Also your guitars.


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Post subject: Re: 1954 Fender Twin on ebay
Posted: Sat Jun 30, 2012 10:44 am
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Dreaming. Thinking of 1968 and 1969 :shock:

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Wishing they were all mine :mrgreen:

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Post subject: Re: 1954 Fender Twin on ebay
Posted: Sat Jun 30, 2012 11:39 am
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tbazzone wrote:
Topp Please you have listed so many wonderful amps that you own I think many of us would love to see a pic of them all together. Also your guitars.


They must be "vampires": they don't show up in photos or mirrors. :lol: :lol: :lol:

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