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Post subject: Re: tremolux tone troubleshooting
Posted: Wed May 30, 2012 7:24 am
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I got the amp back from the shop last night... tubes rebiased, the tremolo LDR was out, which is why I wasn't getting the effect much(if at all...) and 3 prong plug installed... which got rid of some of the hum.

it really sounds great...

the amp shop had a speaker cab with 2 '69 Sunn speakers and that sounded really good with the amp. their cabinet was a closed construction, off the floor, carpet covered job for a shop... looked like something in the back of a redneck's truck... only instead of having 'kicker' speakers it had the '69 sunn's sounded really good though...

I might look at re-doing my cab to be 2x10s or something... idk what to do, it's way big for the space I get to play in... and needs to sit on the floor(wood floor) but does have an awesome, clean, sweet tone... at the shop we turned it up to 7-8 and it was still clean! I still usually play everything with a little dirt though :twisted:


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Post subject: Re: tremolux tone troubleshooting
Posted: Wed May 30, 2012 12:04 pm
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Rhust, Good to hear you got it back to "basics," again. IME, the 2 X 10 inch Weber alnico 10A125 loaded cab is a GREAT lead cab. Very good at moderate levels and dimed, with a 36-40 watt amp. Go for 30 watt rated speakers, if you go this route.


https://taweber.powweb.com/weber/10a125.htm


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Post subject: Re: tremolux tone troubleshooting
Posted: Fri Jun 01, 2012 10:30 am
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ok I'd like to learn more about tube selection, and how they can affect volume/gain, and speakers...

right now I am running EH 12ax7s in the preamp, and eh 6l6gc

would changing to a 12au7/12at7 or a true 7025 lower the volume? or make some over drive available?

is there a compatible set of tubes that would give more volume control? more mids?


would unhooking one of the 8 ohm speakers, and running the amp as a 1x12 8ohm hurt the amp? would it lower the volume?

I'm all for trying new things, but don't want to hurt the amp in the process...


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Post subject: Re: tremolux tone troubleshooting
Posted: Fri Jun 01, 2012 11:53 am
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Rhust, first off the 7025 is a 12AX7 (mu = 100), with spiral wound heater wire to help lower AC hum. So no change in gain would be expected with this tube. The NOS 12AX7A also has spiral wound heater line. The actual drop in hum of these tubes is kinda debatable. But, they are great tubes, due to solid grid construction for mil spec standards.

Really, the way the gain stages are setup in a Fender (local and global feedback, bias setting, & plate voltages), you really have to drop the mu of the tube to see a lot of gain change. A 5751 (mu = 70) is a good choice to shift the OD point slightly higher. But, for a drastic change you prolly need to go to a 12AY7 (mu = 44).

Problem is, every tube type not only has different mu, but also different input and output impedances. This effects the frequency response and feedback effect. So, you should have several types available to try out on your amp. As long as the pinout are the same it's ok to interchange. Some examples are 12AT7, 12AY7, 12AX7, 5751's. I personally do not like 12AU7's. They have a very oddball nonlinear response that isn't suited for good input stage response. IMHO. About the only place I've heard good 12AU7 apps is the phase inverter. The CBS BP 7316 or 5418A being the best 12AU7, I've used.

The best way to lower gain is to lower plate voltages and/or idle bias. And change the feedback parameters. This requires circuit surgery and a knowledge of time-constant effects and equations. But, this is why certain ppl like the "tweed" tone. As Leo generally put less voltage and less global feedback on the gain stage (esp the input stage) of the tweed era amps versus the BF and SF era amps. This usually meant a "slower" volume control with lower gain and a browner tone as you cranked the volume. With later onset of OD and compression.

There is a distinct difference in gain stage (12AX7, 12AT7) OD and output tube OD (6V6GT or 6L6GC in Fender amps). It can really be heard in amps with separate GAIN and MASTER volume controls. Something to consider when you are tone shaping.

Best way is to experiment with your amp. Changing the rectifier (if it's a tube type) can also lower plate voltages and give you a later, browner OD. Output tubes will need re-biasing. And you can only play with certain tubes close to each other in PIV and current output. Like using a 5U4GB or 5AS4 in place of a GZ34.

Good luck! HTH.


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Post subject: Re: tremolux tone troubleshooting
Posted: Fri Jun 01, 2012 12:46 pm
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thank you for the in depth explanation!! I was actually trying to bring on OD sooner... damn thing is all headroom :) and a pedal almost seems to come on too quick... I might try a lower gain tube in my pedal and see if that helps... I'm using the 12AU7 there now... I have an extra eh 12ax7, the cheap 12ax7 that came with it fizzed out at low gain settings, or I might order a 12ay7 for the pedal...

browner sound might describe what I'm going for... not sure... lately I've been experimenting trying to get that cranked muddy tweed sound... early zztop(not the slide part), black keys, even the early sabbath "$@!&#* laney amp because we can't afford marshall" sound ;)


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Post subject: Re: tremolux tone troubleshooting
Posted: Fri Jun 01, 2012 2:27 pm
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Rhust, you are welcome. If you are looking for The Black Keys tone... I'm afraid Fender is not the answer. UNLESS, you go small tweed or woodie and a classic Fuzz Face or some such EFX box. I can get it with a very old Champion that uses a 6SJ7 metal octal pentode, cranked to "12." And a Les Paul with the hottest 'buckers or P90's pups you can find. Then, play with the guitar settings to get the desired results. But, any Fender amp with more watts is just gonna take that much more pedals and pups playing to get that Bluesy fuzzed-out tone.

Or better (and cheaper) yet... a closed-door Pignose at full volume. Then, mike it to a clean amp for volume.

But, I'm afraid that tubes only give you so much range of control. If you are into DIY stuff, I built a Matchless Hotbox with 5687 tubes in place of the stock 12AX7's. That box was good for fuzzy tone. FWIW

http://diy-fever.com/amps/tube-reactor-pre/


Last edited by BMW2002Ti on Fri Jun 01, 2012 3:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post subject: Re: tremolux tone troubleshooting
Posted: Fri Jun 01, 2012 2:45 pm
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pignose is a brilliant idea! I haven't played one of those in years!

I don't need the volume :)

I actually get a decent ratty tweed sound from my peavey vypyr... I set it on 'deluxe', gain channel , with gain dimed... I was just trying to get it through my 64, too

I actually get fairly close... bright switch off, #2 input(low input) with my SG(modern wired) and my vt999 OD box.... but still too bright/articulate... I've been told to try the way huge red llama too...

the vt999 totally will turn my BF into a JCM800 though ;) judas priest city


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Post subject: Re: tremolux tone troubleshooting
Posted: Fri Jun 01, 2012 3:16 pm
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BMW2002Ti wrote:
Really, the way the gain stages are setup in a Fender (local and global feedback, bias setting, & plate voltages), you really have to drop the mu of the tube to see a lot of gain change. A 5751 (mu = 70) is a good choice to shift the OD point slightly higher. But, for a drastic change you prolly need to go to a 12AY7 (mu = 44).


+1

A 12AT7 in the V1/V2 position will provide performance characteristics similar to the 5751 but they're a skosh cheaper. For this application it need not have balanced transconductance as would be necessary when used as a phase inverter.

Arjay

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Post subject: Re: tremolux tone troubleshooting
Posted: Sat Jun 02, 2012 11:02 am
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Again, to get those power tubes working a bit, I'd recommend an attenuator, like the Dr. Z Brake Lite SA, so that you can throttle down the power going to the speakers. Attenuators can change your sound somewhat, but it hasn't been an issue for me on my Bandmaster combo.

Other than that, pedals will help get you there, or ultimately another amp.

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Post subject: Re: tremolux tone troubleshooting
Posted: Sat Jun 02, 2012 2:18 pm
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Late on this one! Rhust, what year and model is your amp? Art

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Post subject: Re: tremolux tone troubleshooting
Posted: Sat Jun 02, 2012 2:38 pm
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Rhust, Darn it... if The Black Keys doesn't use a SF Fender in their arsenal. Love that tone.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A3hPL4s5nA8&feature=fvst


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Post subject: Re: tremolux tone troubleshooting
Posted: Sat Jun 02, 2012 3:09 pm
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Yep, a SF Super Reverb to be exact. Definitely a fuzz of some sort in the mix as well as an ABY with the Fender/Marshall.

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Post subject: Re: tremolux tone troubleshooting
Posted: Sat Jun 02, 2012 3:32 pm
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Rhust, my bad! The LDR tells me it's a 763 model. Are you into soldering components? Would you want to pop for some NOS tubes? The speaker selection would be important, also. That amp is choice, and can really be a Blues cruiser, if that's up your alley! JMO Art

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Post subject: Re: tremolux tone troubleshooting
Posted: Sun Jun 03, 2012 6:55 pm
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NOS tubes would make it tasty; I've found also that the Mullard CV4024 was almost designed to be THE phase inverter tube for Fenders. Well worth the $30.

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Post subject: Re: tremolux tone troubleshooting
Posted: Mon Jun 04, 2012 7:00 am
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nedorama wrote:
NOS tubes would make it tasty; I've found also that the Mullard CV4024 was almost designed to be THE phase inverter tube for Fenders. Well worth the $30.

+1
I really like those tubes.


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