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Post subject: Re: Silverface Grill Cloth & Drip Edge Trim * Source Buy Rep
Posted: Wed May 09, 2012 6:54 pm
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mxvin wrote:
thats why I "dumb" it down with an aging process.


That does help quite a bit, mxv.

Now if someone would only invent a "shrinking" spray......

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On the left, original blackface cloth -- on the right, the repro as currently used by FMIC and sold by aftermarket vendors.

It's appalling that in the day of CAM-controlled textile weaving machines that somebody couldn't merely re-program the operation using the correct parameters for the original size and interval.

Arjay

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Post subject: Re: Silverface Grill Cloth & Drip Edge Trim * Source Buy Rep
Posted: Wed May 09, 2012 7:01 pm
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you would think they would want to get it exactly.....especially since it can be done.
The cloth is not only the wrong weave but the stiffness is not correct either. Whether its age or whatever the old blue/sivler sparkel is very stiff and doesn't warp much when its pulled.

Oh well...


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Post subject: Re: Silverface Grill Cloth & Drip Edge Trim * Source Buy Rep
Posted: Wed May 09, 2012 11:02 pm
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Hi. Gentlemen, your observations are outstanding :!:
Hats off to all of you and the pictures, color, measurements ~ everything.
Greatly appreciated.

As you know, I have purchased the rare four corners for the 1968 Showman Reverb.
I am having Mojotone build a backside panel for the Showman Reverb.
I am about to purchase grill cloth from somewhere?
And, I will purchase the four drip edge aluminum trim from that Ebay site.
So, the ball is rolling.

Please do help me out here. Following is an ended EBay ad for a 1967 Blackface
amp that the seller stated in a 'round 'bout way that the grill cloth is original.
If any of you can check out pictures #1 & #2 and let me know if you believe
the grill cloth is original and in good shape:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=261020876617

Also, if anyone would kindly double check the remaining pictures to see if
there are any other potential red-flags or or suspicious items or things
that are not just right.

Thank you so much.
Your experience is greatly appreciated
and your sharing is even more highly regarded.

Toppscore 8)

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Post subject: Re: Silverface Grill Cloth & Drip Edge Trim * Source Buy Rep
Posted: Thu May 10, 2012 12:08 am
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OK. I got that listing posted within the above thread comment.
If anyone would let me know it that grill cloth is original or not
and/or if any other part of the amp is suspect or obviously not original.
Thank you for your opinions. Toppscore

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Post subject: Re: Silverface Grill Cloth & Drip Edge Trim * Source Buy Rep
Posted: Thu May 10, 2012 12:15 am
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I caught a few lucky breaks when I restored this Showman set three summers ago......

Image

Perhaps you'll be as fortunate with yours.

Arjay

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"Here's why reliability is job one: A great sounding amp that breaks down goes from being a favorite piece of gear to a useless piece of crap in less time than it takes to read this sentence." -- BRUCE ZINKY


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Post subject: Re: Silverface Grill Cloth & Drip Edge Trim * Source Buy Rep
Posted: Thu May 10, 2012 2:10 am
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Retroverbial wrote:
I caught a few lucky breaks when I restored this Showman set three summers ago...... Perhaps you'll be as fortunate with yours. Arjay


What do you mean? Are both Fender items original with
ZERO mods nor replaced parts? Really truly those original?

Are you trying to say that the pictured amp is all original and that
the grill cloth is near mint for a 45-50 year old amp? and that you
are wishing me the best of luck to procure something similar? Thank you.

That is a beautiful looking combo piggy back set :mrgreen:
Were they sold together :?:

Are the amps you show around the forum, really really yours :?:
50%/50% your wife has custody :?: :shock:
Or, which museum lets you check them out for two weeks :mrgreen:

Did you get a look at the link for that ebay grill cloth listing?
What do you think?
Thanks, Toppscore 8)

*** If we are on real special double duty good behavior, can we please
get a walk-through your family room and see all of your amps & guitars?
Ever had a family reunion photo of the group :lol:

Please, show us your collection. Are they all Near Mint?
Also, do you still buy & sell, or happy with what you have?


===================
***** You know that in my neighbor hood, there are three or four
restaurant parking lots that have car/automobile clubs drive up and
park for hours, just kind of showing of those awesome muscle cars
and dragsters and incredible rare sedans.

Maybe, we could all meet at a Denny's and bring our amps & axes.
Make a little bit of noise :lol:

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Post subject: Re: Silverface Grill Cloth & Drip Edge Trim * Source Buy Rep
Posted: Thu May 10, 2012 6:42 am
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My eye is not as well trained as some other here but that TR looks pretty clean. It has some work as you can see by the orange caps and newer resistors that were installed. IMO opinion they did a wholesale replacement of resistors. Which may or may not be an issue with you. With the old stuff I have I only replace things that are causing a problem tone wise or reliablity wise to a degree. Its a shame because the blue molded orig caps when healthy are an improved tone for sure. You can still get them here and there on ebay I guess. A decent sub for the blue molded are Mallory 150s. they seem to be a "mellow" cap high end wise to me. The TR is a clean treble machine to begin with. I can only imagine with the Weber Californias(?) and the orange drop caps that that would be enhanced big time. The grill looks orig. Also a sealed up hole in the back of the chassis by the "UL" marker. Holes drilled in vintage chassis are a "no no" estetically and morally to some purists....:)
If you are dead set on a TR then go for it if its in your price range. The transformers look date correct.


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Post subject: Re: Silverface Grill Cloth & Drip Edge Trim * Source Buy Rep
Posted: Thu May 10, 2012 7:39 am
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Thank you, MXVin for taking the time to review the other amp. I greatly appreciate your time and effort. I'm going to share Photobucket of my current 1968 AB763 Twin Reverb. I set if for public viewing for only a short while.
http://s1136.photobucket.com/albums/n482/Toppscore/Fender%201968%20Twin%20Reverb/?start=all
Make sure to click on "all the pictures" as there are forty. If you will take a look, especially at the large blue Sprague Atom filter capacitors, and let me know if you believe they will be good for tone, as you mentioned.

Thanks again for any sharing of your opinion. My amp is great, and I can sell it for a bit and trade up, ~ if that 1967 is worth it. It's speakers are not original. And you see that in the capacitor chassis tray that there is a lot of resistors and capacitors traded out, and you feel that was unnecessary.

Compare my 1968 AB763 chassis tray, capacitors & resistors. I will attest my 1968
AB763 sounds great with no hissing humming buzzing or potentiometer audio noise.

If my AB763 1968 is great, w/no rust/corrosion, no noise, new 6L6-GT Power Groove Tubes, new Sprague Atom Blue Filter capacitors, . . . . and if (and other forum members) feel the capacitor/resistor/wiring tray is as good as I believe it is, then maybe a trade up for a 1967 is not worth it??? Maybe wait for a 1964 or 1965?


======================
I am considering trading up from my 1968 to a 1967 or 1966.

My current amp has only four itmes that are not original: 1) the caster wheels,
2) one speaker 3) the handle is NOS 4) the metal logo is NOS. That's it!!!

What I like about the my 1968 TR amp is it's incredibly clean/clear of any rust & corrosion.
The Blue Filter Caps are two years old.
The four power tubes are two years old.
The baffle was reinforced.

Following is some of my advertising info:
1968 Fender AB763 Twin Reverb Drip-Edge Silverface 85w-94w 2x12 Amplifier
* Original Transformers * Incredible Tone Reverb & Vibrato * Very Good Condition
* Natural AB763 Blackface Electronics Circuitry * Black Lines on Faceplate
85 watts to 94 watts will deliver strong, loud & clean Fender Tones. This amp plays very clean & clear at low volumes. Minimal noise/hissing at standstill. Great classic Fender Reverb Tones. The Vibrato sounds wonderful. Weighs only 64 pounds with footswitch. Very good condition for a 1968 Vintage Fender Guitar Amplifier.

Fender AB763 Twin Reverb Silverface Drip-Edge Amplifier
Manufactured & Shipped during August 1968
Serial Number = A14690 (see picture of chassis)
Twin Reverb = AB763, AC568, AA769, AA270 (Silverface)
A10500 to A11300 - 1967
A10500 to A16500 - 1968 = A14690 = This EBay Auction’s Fender AA763 Twin Reverb

Chassis wiring date = 3368 or 33rd week (August) of 1968 (see picture of chassis)
This Twin Reverb’s Faceplate has the desired “Black Lines" which indicate the desired AB763 Blackface circuitry

Original Power Transformer PN# F022756 * Serial# 606827 = 27th Week (July) of 1968
Original Output Transformer PN# 022889 * Serial# 606816 = 16th Week (April) of 1968
Original Reverb Transformer PN# 022921 * Serial# 606821 = 21st Week (May) of 1968
Original Choke Serial PN# 022??9 * Serial# 606740= 40th Week (October) of 1967
* Four (4) GT-6L6-R Power Groove Tubes = Strong 85-watts~94-watts (***these are fairly recent 2009, see pictures below)
* Six (6) Pre-Amp Tubes (*** I am not sure of the pre-amp tubes. They MAY BE 2009/ish or they MAY NOT BE. They were at least tested in 2009)
* Five (5) Filter Capacitors (***these are fairly recent 2009 Blue Atom Spragues. Review below photos showing filter caps w/doghouse cover off)
* INCLUDED: Original 1968 Vibrato/Reverb Two-Button Footswitch. (You'll need the footswitch to work the vibrato channel. See picture)
* All faceplate control panel knobs are original.

* Normally, the 1968 Fender Twin Reverb is an 85 watt amplifier. But the previous owner's amp repair technician tuned it up, added four (4) new GT-6L6-R power Groove Tubes, five (5) new big Sprague Atom output power filter capacitors, changed some resistors & capacitors and set the bias. The result is this Twin Reverb is now rated at up to 94 watts. I will attest to the strong tones and clean sounds. The Twin Reverb is famous for making great reverb tones, high volume clean sounds and plays very well at low volumes.

* This 1968 Silverface Drip-Edge Twin Reverb offers some very nice features for those who love great tones. good sounds and incredible reverb. The tube chart indicates this is an AB763 Twin Reverb which is NATURALLY Fender Factory schematically wired to have the “Blackface” Fender sounds & tones. The Black Lines on this amp’s faceplate further indicate the amp’s position regarding CBS’s influences on the Fender Twin Reverb product line, as well as all Fender amps at that time. This Fender Twin Reverb amplifier had the highly desired Pre-CBS Blackface Circuitry. For your bidding pleasure

* Reverb Tank Condition: The reverb tank is working perfectly and sounds great. No concerns with the reverb tanks input or output. The problem is the 44 year old bag needs replacing. It is not attached on the right side. You can see It within one of the pictures. The black reverb bag needs replacing. Sorry, but I did not notice until I started shooting pictures

* Great working amp. All electronics & controls sound wonderful. The reverb is strong and sustains forever. The Normal Channel is clean as “night-time till dawn”. Both channel Bright Switches work perfectly. The Vibrato controls are in good working condition ~ I like to set the “Speed on 3-6”, the “Intensity on 5-8”

* Low or minimal hissing or noise issues. Less than the normal light amount of humming for a 44 year old amp. Make sure you are using a “true” grounded outlet, or any amp will hiss/hum. This amp’s potentiometers were cleaned & prepped during 2009

* The exterior cosmetics are in very good shape for a 44 year old amp. From what I can gather, it’s been more of an indoor amp, and it shows. Check out the internal chassis & transformer tray. Extreme minimal rust or corrosion (check the below pictures). Pictured are all of the scuffs and dings, but, really, the Twin Reverb looks better than most 44 year old guitarists

*The external chrome is in real nice condition. Lots of shine. The tilt-back legs are shiny. The chrome chassis straps and the chrome cabinet corners are in very good condition, minimal wear. Of course, the handle is a USED NOS “era correct” replacement. Honestly, I love playing amps and I study amp & guitar history, but I don’t know much technically or what is or what is not original. I cannot tell an original tube, chassis strap, tilt-back leg, screw & nut, etc. from an non-original part. All that I can do is share what I know is true and/or what components may need more consideration from you, the buyer, before you buy

* Recent new removable caster wheels have been installed. Believe me, as I own many amps, having casters is a real dream moving the 64 pound Twin Reverb around. But, there’s a cost to having casters, and it’s shown within the pictures of the amp’s inside base area where the needed caster wheel support brace holes had to protrude through the base board (see the pictures)

* The famous Silverface “Drip-Edge” Trim is in excellent condition (see the pictures)
* Speakers: It appears to me that one speaker is an original twelve inch 1968 Fender Speaker. Fender is not the OEM, and I believe Eminence is the original manufacturer. There are no identity markings. The newer speaker is a twelve inch, four ohm Eminence speaker from 1989 (I believe). The identity numbers on the newer Eminence are: 67-99290176-G1, 048878, 121389. It also has a Fender Musical Instruments – Special Design Speaker decal sticker on the magnet

* The speaker wiring harness, the tilt-back legs, the exterior chrome, the metal chassis & capacitor tray are so well cared for that they do not look old. As I’ve stated, this is an indoors amp, so rust & corrosion is very minimal. See all of the pictures of the capacitor tray, the transformers, the choke, the chassis straps, the chrome corners, etc. All of my other amps are this way, also. It is my belief that an amp’s tubes, transistors, capacitors, transformers, choke, speakers, potentiometers, wiring, etc. are ALL expected to be replaced. But, to own an amp with the chrome, tolex and wood in good condition, is a highly desired feature. To not have water damage, insect infestation, ripped/torn/glued tolex, broken wood frame/structure are highly desired qualities. I have seen numerous amps with tons of rust & corrosion all over the inside and outside. Looks like disease! Check the great pictures provided for you to inspect this Twin Reverb’s condition

* The Front Grill: Pictured are three small holes in the front grill cloth. In the middle, upper left corner and bottom left corner
* A new tremelo opto-coupler was installed in 2009
* The Caster Wheels are new since 2009. They work great with no squeaks. The wheels are easily removable for “amp on the floor” play
* A used NOS Fender Logo was installed by me. I paid $37.00 for the privilege of “looking good”. I searched for a NOS older used logo and paid $37.00 on EBay for a very nice one: http://www.ebay.com/itm/260976628823?ss ... 1439.l2649
* The previous owner had the baffle board professional reinforced and secured towards supporting the heavy speakers

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Post subject: Re: Silverface Grill Cloth & Drip Edge Trim * Source Buy Rep
Posted: Thu May 10, 2012 8:59 am
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Well....I didnt say the replacement of the resistors weren't necessary its just my opinion that when I see so many replaced and the ones they did replace it was a wholesale type of maintenance on the amp. Not a bad thing just an observation.
I am very partial to the Drip Edge era amps especially the black line models. Personally I wouldn't trade up for for BFTR. Thats a personal decision you'll have to make. I would invest in better speakers for the 68. Don't know what your motivation for wanting to trade up is.
The description of your amp and the picture are all a potential buyer would need.

Good luck....


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Post subject: Re: Silverface Grill Cloth & Drip Edge Trim * Source Buy Rep
Posted: Thu May 10, 2012 9:06 am
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mxvin wrote:
I am very partial to the Drip Edge era amps especially the black line models. Personally I wouldn't trade up for for BFTR.


+1

As long as the Twin Reverb was made prior to April of '68, it will be the AB763 circuit revision.

Beyond that......the dreaded-and-notorious AC568, loaded with meddlesome, tone-thieving "improvements".

:lol:

Arjay

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Post subject: Re: Silverface Grill Cloth & Drip Edge Trim * Source Buy Rep
Posted: Thu May 10, 2012 9:01 pm
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Retroverbial wrote:
mxvin wrote:
I am very partial to the Drip Edge era amps especially the black line models. Personally I wouldn't trade up for for BFTR.

+1 As long as the Twin Reverb was made prior to April of '68, it will be the AB763 circuit revision. Beyond that......the dreaded-and-notorious AC568, loaded with meddlesome, tone-thieving "improvements". :lol: Arjay
Hi, Arjay! Regarding your April 1968 statement for AB763. . . . .

Please help me out here. Are you sure about April 1968 & AB763 & AC568?

My 1968 Twin Reverb’s tube chart states:
AB7xx, Looks like AB76x, Looks like AB763
It could NOT be the next AC568. So, AB763 is on the tube chart.

http://s1136.photobucket.com/albums/n482/Toppscore/Fender%201968%20Twin%20Reverb/?start=all

Manufactured & Shipped during August 1968

Chassis wiring date = 3368 or 33rd week (August) of 1968

This Twin Reverb’s Faceplate has the desired “Black Lines"
which indicate AB763 Blackface circuitry, right?

Serial Number = A14690 = middle of the 1968 year serial numbers

Twin Reverb AA763, AB763 (blackface)
A00100 to A01200 - 1964
A01200 to A04300 - 1965
A04300 to A07000 - 1966
A07000 to A10400 - 1967

Twin Reverb AB763, AC568, AA769, AA270 (silverface)
A10500 to A11300 - 1967
A10500 to A16500 – 1968 ~ My 1968 SN#A14690 (August seems good)
A16500 to A21400 - 1969
A21400 to A25600 - 1970

Original Power Transformer PN# F022756 * Serial# 606827 = 27th Week (July) of 1968
Original Output Transformer PN# 022889 * Serial# 606816 = 16th Week (April) of 1968
Original Reverb Transformer PN# 022921 * Serial# 606821 = 21st Week (May) of 1968
Original Choke Serial PN# 022??9 * Serial# 606740= 40th Week (October) of 1967

==================

http://s1136.photobucket.com/albums/n482/Toppscore/Fender%201968%20Twin%20Reverb/?start=all

So, Arjay, do you feel my 1968 Silverface Twin Reverb
with faceplate Blacklines,
with a tube chart that is AB763
with a choke from 1967
Two transfromers from April & May
One transformer from July
An August chassis wiring date.


Please tell me what do you think? AB763 or AC568?
Thank you and Mxvin and anybody for a response.
Toppscore 8)

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Post subject: Re: Silverface Grill Cloth & Drip Edge Trim * Source Buy Rep
Posted: Thu May 10, 2012 9:13 pm
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mxvin wrote:
I use tinted clear spray laquer to do the aging job.
Tones the turquoise down big time..
http://gitarmoto.shutterfly.com/388


OK. After extensive work and searching for grill cloth that
looked like my 1968 Showman Reverb grill cloth, I give up.
There was nothing super close.

But, of all the available options, I purchased the following.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Fender-Aged-Blue-White-Silver-Grill-Cloth-/380178175088?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item5884629470

Not too bad, don't you think? Tell me it is acceptable.
Better than having something cruddy? Toppscore 8)

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Post subject: Re: Silverface Grill Cloth & Drip Edge Trim * Source Buy Rep
Posted: Thu May 10, 2012 10:20 pm
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Toppscore wrote:
Please tell me what do you think? AB763 or AC568?
Thank you and Mxvin and anybody for a response.


The AB763 circuit -- formalized and approved for production in July 1963 -- was replaced by the AC568 in May of 1968.

You got a build date of August?

Congratulations......it's an AC568.

It's as simple as that.

The tube chart is the most unreliable method of determining an amp's age and/or pedigree. Neither can cosmetic cues be trusted to accurately ascertain the vintage or which circuit revision is extant.

Arjay

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Post subject: Re: Silverface Grill Cloth & Drip Edge Trim * Source Buy Rep
Posted: Thu May 10, 2012 11:23 pm
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Retroverbial wrote:
The AB763 circuit -- formalized and approved for production in July 1963 -- was replaced by the AC568 in May of 1968. You got a build date of August? Congratulations. It's an AC568. It's as simple as that. The tube chart is the most unreliable method of determining an amp's age and/or pedigree. Neither can cosmetic cues be trusted to accurately ascertain the vintage or which circuit revision is extant. Arjay


That can make sense most sense.
Image

My clue for an August build date is the above "3368" in the photo. Does that
mean 33rd week of 1968, or is there a correct way to interpret that number?
It is the only reason I believe August. Toppscore 8)

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Post subject: Re: Silverface Grill Cloth & Drip Edge Trim * Source Buy Rep
Posted: Thu May 10, 2012 11:30 pm
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Correct -- your amp was built in the 33rd week of 1968. Inked date stamps on the chassis and the EIA codes on each tranny, each pot, and most electrolytic caps are the most accurate method of dating a chassis (assuming that these parts are original to the amp).

Arjay

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