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Post subject: Re: '65 Princeton Reissue vs Original
Posted: Thu Apr 19, 2012 4:47 pm
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Rebelsoul wrote:
mhowell,you seem very preoccupied with debunking "myths" especially about tube amps in general...I understand somewhat....but most of us here have come to these conclusions through decades of using the amps,many different types.

ymmv 8)

Definitely, I need to chill. There's misinformation about tube amps out there but so what? It ain't that big a deal.

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Post subject: Re: '65 Princeton Reissue vs Original
Posted: Fri Apr 20, 2012 6:42 am
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mhowell wrote:
Rebelsoul wrote:
mhowell,you seem very preoccupied with debunking "myths" especially about tube amps in general...I understand somewhat....but most of us here have come to these conclusions through decades of using the amps,many different types.

ymmv 8)

Definitely, I need to chill. There's misinformation about tube amps out there but so what? It ain't that big a deal.

There you go man!....I learned many years ago that if I pleased myself with the tone I was getting,then that was fine because I am my own worst critic.....what has happened then is that others who hear me,musicians and music fans alike compliment me on how much they like the music...and I'm just a regular guitar player.
I think it was Carl Perkins who said one time in an interview,that if you can make the people who are listening to you play forget their problems for awhile,like paying the rent and etc.,then you've done something good.
That's what I try to do,make people forget their troubles for awhile. :D


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Post subject: Re: '65 Princeton Reissue vs Original
Posted: Mon Apr 23, 2012 12:13 pm
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I can't say that it applies to amps but pine sap changes the tonal qualities of the wood as the sap crystalizes and hardens over the course of decades. There is a guy in downtown Manhatten that builds Pinecasters from old growth pine timbers recycled from centuries old buildings based on that fact.

http://www.kellyguitars.com/mystery_of_ ... cules.html

Arc

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Post subject: Re: '65 Princeton Reissue vs Original
Posted: Thu Apr 26, 2012 12:27 pm
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Doing a bit of research I found a good number of boutique builders producing Princeton / Deluxe reverb clones, With the same materials (solid pine cab, point-to point circuitry) as the original vintage amps at a price that is not much more than the Fender reissues. If these small builders can do it, why won't Fender? Surely it would be just as easy for Fender to do it at a similar price point?


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Post subject: Re: '65 Princeton Reissue vs Original
Posted: Thu Apr 26, 2012 1:47 pm
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If Fender reissues an amp,it's usually always higher than a similar boutique clone...you pay a premium for that name plate.


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Post subject: Re: '65 Princeton Reissue vs Original
Posted: Thu Apr 26, 2012 1:48 pm
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TC5A wrote:
Doing a bit of research I found a good number of boutique builders producing Princeton / Deluxe reverb clones, With the same materials (solid pine cab, point-to point circuitry) as the original vintage amps at a price that is not much more than the Fender reissues. If these small builders can do it, why won't Fender? Surely it would be just as easy for Fender to do it at a similar price point?


Small boutique builders are exempt from a number of onerous-and-costly government regulations, they don't rely on over-priced unionized labor, and they sell direct to the public which eliminates a lot of retail markup as with the long-established manufacturers who now rely primarily on name recognition only to sell their wares.

Arjay

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"Here's why reliability is job one: A great sounding amp that breaks down goes from being a favorite piece of gear to a useless piece of crap in less time than it takes to read this sentence." -- BRUCE ZINKY


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Post subject: Re: '65 Princeton Reissue vs Original
Posted: Thu Apr 26, 2012 1:59 pm
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Retroverbial wrote:
Small boutique builders are exempt from a number of onerous-and-costly government regulations, they don't rely on over-priced unionized labor, and they sell direct to the public which eliminates a lot of retail markup as with the long-established manufacturers who now rely primarily on name recognition only to sell their wares.

Arjay


I see. I guess that explains the situation.


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Post subject: Re: '65 Princeton Reissue vs Original
Posted: Fri Apr 27, 2012 11:09 am
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Quote:
Small boutique builders are exempt from a number of onerous-and-costly government regulations, they don't rely on over-priced unionized labor, and they sell direct to the public which eliminates a lot of retail markup as with the long-established manufacturers who now rely primarily on name recognition only to sell their wares.

Arjay


I'm probably not telling you anything you don't already know but those small businesses still have a lot IRS crap to deal with. Most of them probably have to retain the services of a CPA. How much overhead that generates is anybody's guess but it ain't free.

The small builders also can't take advantage of the 'economy of scale' like the big boys.

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Last edited by mhowell on Fri Apr 27, 2012 11:22 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Post subject: Re: '65 Princeton Reissue vs Original
Posted: Fri Apr 27, 2012 11:21 am
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There's a spreadsheet available from tedweber.com that has the BOM for all their amp kits. We ran the numbers to see what it would cost to individually source all the parts for the 6A14 Combo kit (essentially a princeton reverb clone). There was no way I could source those parts for less than the price of the kit. And if I upgraded some of the parts I was past the price of of Fenders PRRI.

If I were a boutique builder I don't think there is any way I could sell a quality tube amp like the 6A14 combo for less than $1000 and it would likely get closer to $1500. That price assumes that my only overhead is parts, shipping, and my own labor.

Factor in the cost of advertising and marketing so we could actually sell something and the price has to go up. Would probably need to retain legal and accounting services also. Then I've got to have a real shop and decent tools - can't build amps on the kitchen table forever.

The more I think about it the more I appreciate those boutique builders. Some of them might be getting rich but most of them must be driven by passion. And I know they're working their a55es off.

Cheers,

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Post subject: Re: '65 Princeton Reissue vs Original
Posted: Fri Apr 27, 2012 11:27 am
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mhowell wrote:
The small builders also can't take advantage of the 'economy of scale' like the big boys.


The "economy of scale" you mention means only that the big boys can buy container-ships full of cheap offshore-made components at a discount, which the boutique builders eschew because they know they're junk and have no place in a quality reproduction of an authentic vintage amp.

As for the "bean-counter" stuff, all companies face that prospect, whether large or small. But a five- or ten-man shop requires far less billable hours from a CPA than a multi-billion dollar conglomerate with thousands of employees located in manufacturing facilities all over the world.

Arjay

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Post subject: Re: '65 Princeton Reissue vs Original
Posted: Fri Apr 27, 2012 11:36 am
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Anyone know if the Fender 57 tweed champ reissue has a solid pine cabinet, finger jointed?


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Post subject: Re: '65 Princeton Reissue vs Original
Posted: Fri Apr 27, 2012 11:40 am
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Retroverbial wrote:
mhowell wrote:
The small builders also can't take advantage of the 'economy of scale' like the big boys.


The "economy of scale" you mention means only that the big boys can buy container-ships full of cheap offshore-made components at a discount, which the boutique builders eschew because they know they're junk and have no place in a quality reproduction of an authentic vintage amp.

As for the "bean-counter" stuff, all companies face that prospect, whether large or small. But a five- or ten-man shop requires far less billable hours from a CPA than a multi-billion dollar conglomerate with thousands of employees located in manufacturing facilities all over the world.

Arjay

Economy of scale means they can buy anything at a discount. They can also operate with greater efficiency throughout the business - material, labor, shipping, whatever.

I don't think we disagree on the accounting.

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Post subject: Re: '65 Princeton Reissue vs Original
Posted: Fri Apr 27, 2012 12:54 pm
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TC5A wrote:
Anyone know if the Fender 57 tweed champ reissue has a solid pine cabinet, finger jointed?

The specs say that it does


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Post subject: Re: '65 Princeton Reissue vs Original
Posted: Fri Apr 27, 2012 2:06 pm
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mhowell wrote:
Economy of scale means they can buy anything at a discount.


Indeed. But they are buying just "anything". They're buying junk to satisfy their penchant for an exhorbitant profit margin regardless of whether or not the product actually performs and totally ignoring durability and reliability issues.

mhowell wrote:
They can also operate with greater efficiency throughout the business - material, labor, shipping, whatever.


And that robotic quest for such "efficiency" is responsible for the lion's share of problems with brand-new equipment since the alacrity with which products are pushed to the shipping department precludes any pretense of QC/QA procedures.

Arjay

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"Here's why reliability is job one: A great sounding amp that breaks down goes from being a favorite piece of gear to a useless piece of crap in less time than it takes to read this sentence." -- BRUCE ZINKY


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Post subject: Re: '65 Princeton Reissue vs Original
Posted: Fri Apr 27, 2012 9:43 pm
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Retroverbial wrote:
mhowell wrote:
Economy of scale means they can buy anything at a discount.


Indeed. But they are buying just "anything". They're buying junk to satisfy their penchant for an exhorbitant profit margin regardless of whether or not the product actually performs and totally ignoring durability and reliability issues.

mhowell wrote:
They can also operate with greater efficiency throughout the business - material, labor, shipping, whatever.


And that robotic quest for such "efficiency" is responsible for the lion's share of problems with brand-new equipment since the alacrity with which products are pushed to the shipping department precludes any pretense of QC/QA procedures.

Arjay

That sounds like managerial issues. I worked for Compaq back in the late '80s and they were anal about quality.

Couple of years later I worked for a company called Telxon. Their philosophy was "get it in a box and ship it". They hit 30% OBF (out of box failures) before they tried to turn things around.

Both companies ended up getting bought out by competitors. :lol:

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