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Post subject: Re: '65 Princeton Reissue vs Original
Posted: Sun Apr 15, 2012 9:10 am
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mhowell wrote:
Retroverbial wrote:
.
.
.
These enclosures do not resonate as well
.
.
.

Arjay

Arjay,

Can you elaborate on this point?

My vintage amps without reverb,but with the pine cabinets are very resonate...so much so that other guitarists are suprised when they find that there's no reverb on board.
But I have no experience with the new reissue cabinets,and don't plan to buy any either. :wink:
I should add that I usually go no higher on the reverb knob than 2 1/2 or 3 on reverb equipped amps,I don't like much....so when giggin' with non/reverb models,it's not missed at all,really.


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Post subject: Re: '65 Princeton Reissue vs Original
Posted: Sun Apr 15, 2012 9:22 am
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Rebelsoul wrote:
....so when giggin' with non/reverb models,it's not missed at all,really.


Often a room will provide its own ambient reverb, especially those with high ceilings and hardwood floors (such as may be found at many saloons and clubs).

Arjay

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Post subject: Re: '65 Princeton Reissue vs Original
Posted: Sun Apr 15, 2012 11:32 am
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bluesky636 wrote:
mhowell wrote:
Retroverbial wrote:
.
.
.
These enclosures do not resonate as well
.
.
.

Arjay

Arjay,

Can you elaborate on this point?


I can give you a direct example.

I have two amps sitting side by side. One is a Weber 5F6A 59 Bassman clone that I built earlier this year. The other is a Fender Blues Deluxe Reissue.

Image

The Bassman clone is built as Fender built them in 1959: Solid pine boards with finger jointed corners and the baffleboard attached with 4 screws. The BDRI, on the other hand is made of MDF with, I believe, rabbet joints. Definitely not finger jointed. The baffleboard is attached with six screws.

When played without reverb, the BDRI sounds very dead. There is little or no cabinet vibration that I would call "musical". The cabinet of the Bassman clone on the other hand, is very "alive" sounding. It sounds like a reverb is in use even when not. You can place your hand on the top of the cabinet and feel the vibrations.

Plus, the pine cabinet smells so nice. :D MDF smells like, well, it really doen't have a smell that I can detect. :lol:


I would love to hear that.

What happens if you plug the clone speakers into the BDRI amp or vice versa? That would eliminate a variable and provide a more direct comparison of just the cabinets. In other words rip it up on the clone then unplug the 4x10s and plug the BDRI cabinet into the clone and rip it up again. Record both samples and let us hear the difference.

It would be even better if there were two 4x10s side by side, one old school construction and the other new school, and being driven by the same amp.

Maybe someone with the resources could even take the time to mount the same amp in both cabinets to eliminate differences caused by possible interaction between the chassis and the cabinet as a variable.

I wonder how many folks could tell the difference in a double blind test. By "folks" I mean experienced guitar players that know what to listen for.

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Post subject: Re: '65 Princeton Reissue vs Original
Posted: Sun Apr 15, 2012 11:36 am
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Amerigo wrote:
Image

A friend and I compared the two. It was his factory original RI against my 1966 Princeton Reverb. Grandfather won hands down.

Cheers

David


Could you record some samples for us to hear for comparison.

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Post subject: Re: '65 Princeton Reissue vs Original
Posted: Sun Apr 15, 2012 12:11 pm
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mhowell wrote:
I would love to hear that.

What happens if you plug the clone speakers into the BDRI amp or vice versa? That would eliminate a variable and provide a more direct comparison of just the cabinets. In other words rip it up on the clone then unplug the 4x10s and plug the BDRI cabinet into the clone and rip it up again. Record both samples and let us hear the difference.

It would be even better if there were two 4x10s side by side, one old school construction and the other new school, and being driven by the same amp.

Maybe someone with the resources could even take the time to mount the same amp in both cabinets to eliminate differences caused by possible interaction between the chassis and the cabinet as a variable.

I wonder how many folks could tell the difference in a double blind test. By "folks" I mean experienced guitar players that know what to listen for.


Totally unnecessary in my opinion. The differences in cabinet sound regardless of the amp or speakers are much more obvious than the differences in sound caused by guitar tonewoods.

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Post subject: Re: '65 Princeton Reissue vs Original
Posted: Sun Apr 15, 2012 1:16 pm
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bluesky636 wrote:
mhowell wrote:
I would love to hear that.

What happens if you plug the clone speakers into the BDRI amp or vice versa? That would eliminate a variable and provide a more direct comparison of just the cabinets. In other words rip it up on the clone then unplug the 4x10s and plug the BDRI cabinet into the clone and rip it up again. Record both samples and let us hear the difference.

It would be even better if there were two 4x10s side by side, one old school construction and the other new school, and being driven by the same amp.

Maybe someone with the resources could even take the time to mount the same amp in both cabinets to eliminate differences caused by possible interaction between the chassis and the cabinet as a variable.

I wonder how many folks could tell the difference in a double blind test. By "folks" I mean experienced guitar players that know what to listen for.


Totally unnecessary in my opinion. The differences in cabinet sound regardless of the amp or speakers are much more obvious than the differences in sound caused by guitar tonewoods.


I don't seriously expect anyone go to the trouble and do the research just because of my curiosity on a web forum. But I fail to see how your opinion makes a test unnecessary. I would never tell you or Arjay that you're wrong in your opinions because I don't know. But your opinions are not the final word.

When Arjay says old school construction is superior (he didn't exactly say that but the was my inference) I tend to believe him and respect his opinion but I still want to know empirically what the differences are. Therefore a test that eliminates as many variables as possible might yield some useful information. And when you say the differences are obvious that really peaks my interest.

But terms like 'more resonate' don't tell me anything. Every part of the signal chain has a transfer characteristic, a resonate frequency, and other parameters. These characteristics are measurable and they tell us more than the non-falsifiable descriptions like, "smooth", "warm", "harsh", and numerous other terms. That's how myths get started.

But like I started out saying, I don't honestly expect anyone to do the research just for me but I figure a sound demo isn't too much to ask. :)

Cheers

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Post subject: Re: '65 Princeton Reissue vs Original
Posted: Sun Apr 15, 2012 2:21 pm
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mhowell wrote:
bluesky636 wrote:
mhowell wrote:
I would love to hear that.

What happens if you plug the clone speakers into the BDRI amp or vice versa? That would eliminate a variable and provide a more direct comparison of just the cabinets. In other words rip it up on the clone then unplug the 4x10s and plug the BDRI cabinet into the clone and rip it up again. Record both samples and let us hear the difference.

It would be even better if there were two 4x10s side by side, one old school construction and the other new school, and being driven by the same amp.

Maybe someone with the resources could even take the time to mount the same amp in both cabinets to eliminate differences caused by possible interaction between the chassis and the cabinet as a variable.

I wonder how many folks could tell the difference in a double blind test. By "folks" I mean experienced guitar players that know what to listen for.


Totally unnecessary in my opinion. The differences in cabinet sound regardless of the amp or speakers are much more obvious than the differences in sound caused by guitar tonewoods.


I don't seriously expect anyone go to the trouble and do the research just because of my curiosity on a web forum. But I fail to see how your opinion makes a test unnecessary. I would never tell you or Arjay that you're wrong in your opinions because I don't know. But your opinions are not the final word.

When Arjay says old school construction is superior (he didn't exactly say that but the was my inference) I tend to believe him and respect his opinion but I still want to know empirically what the differences are. Therefore a test that eliminates as many variables as possible might yield some useful information. And when you say the differences are obvious that really peaks my interest.

But terms like 'more resonate' don't tell me anything. Every part of the signal chain has a transfer characteristic, a resonate frequency, and other parameters. These characteristics are measurable and they tell us more than the non-falsifiable descriptions like, "smooth", "warm", "harsh", and numerous other terms. That's how myths get started.

But like I started out saying, I don't honestly expect anyone to do the research just for me but I figure a sound demo isn't too much to ask. :)

Cheers


I guess you'll just have to take my word on my description of the sound differences between the two amp cabs for now.

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Post subject: Re: '65 Princeton Reissue vs Original
Posted: Sun Apr 15, 2012 8:23 pm
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Retroverbial wrote:
Rebelsoul wrote:
....so when giggin' with non/reverb models,it's not missed at all,really.


Often a room will provide its own ambient reverb, especially those with high ceilings and hardwood floors (such as may be found at many saloons and clubs).

Arjay

Exactamundo! :D
I always like it better when the ceilings are higher,mainly to let the drums not bounce right back at us so much too....we play one place with a ceiling quite low and my ears ring for days afterward.


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Post subject: Re: '65 Princeton Reissue vs Original
Posted: Mon Apr 16, 2012 12:33 am
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mhowell wrote:
Could you record some samples for us to hear for comparison.


I don't think that Youtube-comparisons really show anything at all. There's too much involved in the signal chain. Maybe you can find one and compare yourself, you'll hear it immediately.

Cheers

David

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Post subject: Re: '65 Princeton Reissue vs Original
Posted: Mon Apr 16, 2012 12:39 am
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mhowell wrote:
When Arjay says old school construction is superior (he didn't exactly say that but the was my inference) I tend to believe him and respect his opinion but I still want to know empirically what the differences are.


Finger joints vs. rabbet joints i.e. difference in build quality.

mhowell wrote:
But terms like 'more resonate' don't tell me anything.


The cabinet is more alive.

mhowell wrote:
a sound demo isn't too much to ask.


Do you have experience in recording and letting other people play back what you have recorded? It's a tragedy, so I won't even start to do it. In the end, people will judge the quality of their speakers in their room. 90% of ppl play Youtube videos on their computer speakers and try to hear a difference :cry:

The best way is if you went and listened for yourself.

Cheers

David

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Post subject: Re: '65 Princeton Reissue vs Original
Posted: Mon Apr 16, 2012 6:46 am
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mhowell,you seem very preoccupied with debunking "myths" especially about tube amps in general...I understand somewhat....but most of us here have come to these conclusions through decades of using the amps,many different types.
None of us here are deluded enough to believe that a side by side recorded sample of anything is conclusive evidence of much of anything,there's too many variables...scientific testing in a controlled lab will get you repeated results to come to your own opinion if need be....though I'll leave that to some guy in a white lab coat.
But....and that's a big but.....I think most every experienced player here will agree with me when I say this,there's a noticable audio difference sometimes day to day with musical instruments and amps even when you leave them in the same room with no changes in settings....caused by what?, barometric pressure,humidity....hearing problems??? I don't really know or care...it's something I accept because I experience it....other than that I don't need further proof in a blind test.
ymmv 8)


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Post subject: Re: '65 Princeton Reissue vs Original
Posted: Mon Apr 16, 2012 9:54 am
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Rebelsoul wrote:
mhowell,you seem very preoccupied with debunking "myths" especially about tube amps in general...I understand somewhat....but most of us here have come to these conclusions through decades of using the amps,many different types.


The "empirical" evidence he seeks can only be gleaned by decades and decades of personally owning and playing these amps night after night, gig after gig, year in and year out. There is little basis for discussion with one whose amp ownership experience routinely lies with buying a new POS every time some company offers a new sonic turd ballyhoed as "new/improved" over the previous POS. Never mind that these sonic turds will put one on a first-name basis with a local amp tech right up to the point at which buying "new/improved" becomes a more economically-viable option. And thus, the cycle will repeat......

Arjay

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Post subject: Re: '65 Princeton Reissue vs Original
Posted: Mon Apr 16, 2012 5:24 pm
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So, would you say that the SFPR still sounds better than the reissue even though the cabinet is made of MDF?


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Post subject: Re: '65 Princeton Reissue vs Original
Posted: Mon Apr 16, 2012 8:05 pm
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Retroverbial wrote:
Rebelsoul wrote:
mhowell,you seem very preoccupied with debunking "myths" especially about tube amps in general...I understand somewhat....but most of us here have come to these conclusions through decades of using the amps,many different types.


The "empirical" evidence he seeks can only be gleaned by decades and decades of personally owning and playing these amps night after night, gig after gig, year in and year out. There is little basis for discussion with one whose amp ownership experience routinely lies with buying a new POS every time some company offers a new sonic turd ballyhoed as "new/improved" over the previous POS. Never mind that these sonic turds will put one on a first-name basis with a local amp tech right up to the point at which buying "new/improved" becomes a more economically-viable option. And thus, the cycle will repeat......

Arjay


Who the hell are you talking about?


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Post subject: Re: '65 Princeton Reissue vs Original
Posted: Mon Apr 16, 2012 8:55 pm
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FXA wrote:
So, would you say that the SFPR still sounds better than the reissue even though the cabinet is made of MDF?

I would say that....because of the components in the chassis....the reissues sound good but don't sound as good as a BF or SF amp,generally speaking,there's good and bad in both.
Really good speakers make a dramatic change,more so than a cabinet material in a combo amp.....that's my 2 centavos. :D
Now about speakers......have you tried Weber?....that's my fav. :mrgreen:


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