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Post subject: Re: Did I get Ripped?
Posted: Mon Apr 16, 2012 11:54 am
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Retroverbial wrote:
Sure.

mhowell wrote:
I've been playing for 35 years. Point out a single thing I've said that is factually incorrect.


"Playing" is no surrogate for practical amp experience -- whether building them, repairing them, modding them, or restoring them.

You've stepped on your dick......again.

Arjay


What have I said that was factually incorrect?

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Post subject: Re: Did I get Ripped?
Posted: Mon Apr 16, 2012 12:05 pm
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Could someone please pass the popcorn?

Arc

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...I for one, sure would appreciate the return of intelligent conversation, spirit of assistance and the simple yet effective ignoring of those who can't seem to hang with that...
Best regards,
rob


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Post subject: Re: Did I get Ripped?
Posted: Mon Apr 16, 2012 12:18 pm
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Arc-n-spark wrote:
Could someone please pass the popcorn?

Arc

:lol: :lol:


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Post subject: Re: Did I get Ripped?
Posted: Mon Apr 16, 2012 12:26 pm
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Retroverbial wrote:
Sure.

mhowell wrote:
I've been playing for 35 years. Point out a single thing I've said that is factually incorrect.


"Playing" is no surrogate for practical amp experience -- whether building them, repairing them, modding them, or restoring them.

You've stepped on your dick......again.

Arjay

Agreed! and a pic of one holding a chassis is no proof mhowell. :D
I've played for over 45 years,and it's only been within the past 10-15 years that I've started working on my own amps...am I an expert?..no way!...
there is a lot that I've learned,but when you start talking about some of the things you want proof of or to challenge...well,I seriously doubt that you have the electronic test gear to even start proving things yourself,mhowell...or let's see a pic of your o-scope and signal generator for beginners.


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Post subject: Re: Did I get Ripped?
Posted: Mon Apr 16, 2012 12:27 pm
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Got my popcorn ready too!! :wink:


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Post subject: Re: Did I get Ripped?
Posted: Mon Apr 16, 2012 1:02 pm
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Not sure why some are getting their panties in a wad. I love tube amps and actually prefer them and I've stated as much. I've also stated, in other threads, that I respect the opinion of experienced players and techs. But it's still opinion and not to be taken as fact. Even experts disagree on many things so I'm not buying into one over the other.

My main beef is with some of the hype and factual errors that are prevalent in discussion of tube amps. And you all know there's lots of garbage that gets repeated. (example; tube watt is louder than SS watt - that's BS)

Fact: There's good tube amps and there's bad tube amps and there's also good solid state amps and bad solid state amps. There's far more bad SS amps because it is much cheaper and easier to get them into production compared to tube amps. It's far less likely that a manufacturer is going to invest the material cost of a tube amp into a POS design or botch the production implementation. That's not true with SS where anything is likely to get designed, produced, and put on the shelf at your local music store. The issue is with design and implementation and has nothing to do with device characteristics. To say any amp is better than any other, regardless of device architecture, we should be able to definitively and empirically show the good and bad traits. Everything else is subjective.

I don't have much tube amp experience but I'm not a complete novice. I've done some repair, and built two tube amps from scratch - one was a kit (ax84 p1) and the other my own design (actually more of a modification of an existing design). But I could never work with tube amps for a living.

However, I do understand electronics. I know what a bode plot is, I know how db is calculated, I know how power is calculated, I know what resonant frequency is, etc. My degree is Electrical Engineering, I have telecommunications experience in the Navy and seven years experience manufacturing circuit boards. I currently work in the semiconductor industry doing EDA (Electronic Design Automation) support and development. Not trying to toot my horn but Arjay was implying that I'm an idiot ... and I'm still waiting for him to show me where I was factually incorrect. So far all he's done is name calling.

Cheers,

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Post subject: Re: Did I get Ripped?
Posted: Mon Apr 16, 2012 1:20 pm
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OK, I'll bite... what is the BS about tube amps you are refering to?

Arc

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...I for one, sure would appreciate the return of intelligent conversation, spirit of assistance and the simple yet effective ignoring of those who can't seem to hang with that...
Best regards,
rob


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Post subject: Re: Did I get Ripped?
Posted: Mon Apr 16, 2012 1:29 pm
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Oh... by the way... it's the harmonics of tube amps that fool the ear into thinking that tube amps are louder than SS so yes, a tube amp of the same output wattage will sound louder than a SS even though a db meter will tell a different story. AFAIK.

Arc

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...I for one, sure would appreciate the return of intelligent conversation, spirit of assistance and the simple yet effective ignoring of those who can't seem to hang with that...
Best regards,
rob


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Post subject: Re: Did I get Ripped?
Posted: Mon Apr 16, 2012 1:33 pm
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mhowell,

Well, you wanted to know what you have said that is factualy incorrect, so .....

Let's take your second statement first: "Tube amps don't clip as harshly as SS amps." This statement is factually correct (though you appear to claim it is not) and is common knowledge among amp designers and anyone who received their EE degree before the late 1970's (like me), when tubes were part of the college EE curriculum. If you have ever examined the distortion vs power output curves of a tube amp, you will see that tubes break into clipping much slower and more smoothly that SS devices. SS devices when they hit their clipping point clip harshly and suddenly. Tubes on the other hand go through a period of soft clipping where the signal rounds off before finally being driven into overload and hard clipping. This can easily be seen on an oscillioscope. This is one of the reasons tubes are still so popular with the audiophile set. It takes a considerable amount of additional circuitry to get a solid state device to emulate the smooth breakup of a tube.

Now regarding your second statement: "Tube amps have more even order harmonics". This statement requires some qualification. Single ended devices such a preamp triodes or single power tubes operated in class A tend not to clip each half of the waveform equally. This results in a majority of even order harmonics with a very small proportion of odd order harmonics depending on how symmetrical the clipping is. Contrary to popular opinion, the combination of the fundamental signal and even order harmonics is not particularly pretty from either a electrical waveform or aural standpoint. Push-pull devices on the other hand distort more evenly on each half of the waveform and generate odd order harmonics almost exclusively (there is always some degree of uneveness depending on how closely the tubes are matched, so some even order harmonics do creep in). This is why preamp distortion is commonly perceived as harsh and buzzy while power amp distortion is usually described as horn-like and musically pleasing. However, since SS devices clip more harshly than tubes, it is probably fair to say that as far as output stage distortion goes, SS devices generate more even order harmonics than tubes. And they sound terrible because of it.

And no, I have no intention of proving this to you. It is simple electronic design fact. Feel free to research it yourself.

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Post subject: Re: Did I get Ripped?
Posted: Mon Apr 16, 2012 1:46 pm
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See why I just make smart remarks and rely on my own hard earned experience! :D
Good post bluesky!


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Post subject: Re: Did I get Ripped?
Posted: Mon Apr 16, 2012 2:03 pm
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mhowell wrote:
Not sure why some are getting their panties in a wad. I love tube amps and actually prefer them and I've stated as much. I've also stated, in other threads, that I respect the opinion of experienced players and techs. But it's still opinion and not to be taken as fact. Even experts disagree on many things so I'm not buying into one over the other.

My main beef is with some of the hype and factual errors that are prevalent in discussion of tube amps. And you all know there's lots of garbage that gets repeated. (example; tube watt is louder than SS watt - that's BS)

Fact: There's good tube amps and there's bad tube amps and there's also good solid state amps and bad solid state amps. There's far more bad SS amps because it is much cheaper and easier to get them into production compared to tube amps. It's far less likely that a manufacturer is going to invest the material cost of a tube amp into a POS design or botch the production implementation. That's not true with SS where anything is likely to get designed, produced, and put on the shelf at your local music store. The issue is with design and implementation and has nothing to do with device characteristics. To say any amp is better than any other, regardless of device architecture, we should be able to definitively and empirically show the good and bad traits. Everything else is subjective.

I don't have much tube amp experience but I'm not a complete novice. I've done some repair, and built two tube amps from scratch - one was a kit (ax84 p1) and the other my own design (actually more of a modification of an existing design). But I could never work with tube amps for a living.

However, I do understand electronics. I know what a bode plot is, I know how db is calculated, I know how power is calculated, I know what resonant frequency is, etc. My degree is Electrical Engineering, I have telecommunications experience in the Navy and seven years experience manufacturing circuit boards. I currently work in the semiconductor industry doing EDA (Electronic Design Automation) support and development. Not trying to toot my horn but Arjay was implying that I'm an idiot ... and I'm still waiting for him to show me where I was factually incorrect. So far all he's done is name calling.

Cheers,


You are the only one with your panty's in a wad.

Your diatribe about the hype and factual errors that are prevalent in discussions of tube amps...Well one would think at your age, you would know that it is not your "Facts" but their presentation within this forum...you came here challenging everyone to prove you wrong...no need to prove you wrong, you obviously are one of those "Educated Idiots" we here about. Would have thought the Navy would have taught you some manners and leadership abilities. There are others here with electrical engineering degrees and they don't feel the need to come on here peeing in everyones soup. I try not to get after folks on here, but you have really earned a good reaming...go back to where you came from.

And one last thing, Arjay has 45+ years of actual tube amp building and repair, so he gets a little testy when people like you troll a forum the way you are...The man is a complete set of Encylopdia of Fender Tube Amp knowledge, and has helped more folks on this forum than you can shake your degree at!

T2

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Post subject: Re: Did I get Ripped?
Posted: Mon Apr 16, 2012 2:35 pm
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T2 hit on one thing that's very important to me and is sometimes overlooked and ...that is Arjay's willingness to help people here,as long as that person doesn't come off as what we've seen in this thread....his knowledge of all things Fender is more than impressive.
bluesky and I have traded words at times,but he has proven himself to be a very knowledgable person about guitars and amps with a working history of repairing and building both....I trust his opinion on these things because he's not out to blow his own horn...but to pass along what he knows.
Both of these guys can come off as abrasive at times...but not as bad as me. :lol:
the others here,no need to mention names....have helped so many in the past get through something they're struggling with on vintage amps,that if the person had gotten the info elsewhere,they would have paid for it.
To come here and challenge people to dispel "tube amp myths" when I don't even remember people passing along these statements might be your right mhowell,....but you might be barking up the wrong tree here...these guys know what they're talking about...and they "walk the walk'.


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Post subject: Re: Did I get Ripped?
Posted: Mon Apr 16, 2012 3:28 pm
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Joined: Mon Apr 05, 2010 2:37 pm
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Rebelsoul wrote:
Both of these guys can come off as abrasive at times


Moi?

Rebelsoul wrote:
...but not as bad as me. :lol:


Vous?

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

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Post subject: Re: Did I get Ripped?
Posted: Mon Apr 16, 2012 3:34 pm
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Rebelsoul wrote:
See why I just make smart remarks and rely on my own hard earned experience! :D
Good post bluesky!


Thanks. :D

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Post subject: Re: Did I get Ripped?
Posted: Mon Apr 16, 2012 4:54 pm
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bluesky636 wrote:
mhowell,

Well, you wanted to know what you have said that is factualy incorrect, so .....

Let's take your second statement first: "Tube amps don't clip as harshly as SS amps." This statement is factually correct (though you appear to claim it is not) and is common knowledge among amp designers and anyone who received their EE degree before the late 1970's (like me), when tubes were part of the college EE curriculum. If you have ever examined the distortion vs power output curves of a tube amp, you will see that tubes break into clipping much slower and more smoothly that SS devices. SS devices when they hit their clipping point clip harshly and suddenly. Tubes on the other hand go through a period of soft clipping where the signal rounds off before finally being driven into overload and hard clipping. This can easily be seen on an oscillioscope. This is one of the reasons tubes are still so popular with the audiophile set. It takes a considerable amount of additional circuitry to get a solid state device to emulate the smooth breakup of a tube.

Now regarding your second statement: "Tube amps have more even order harmonics". This statement requires some qualification. Single ended devices such a preamp triodes or single power tubes operated in class A tend not to clip each half of the waveform equally. This results in a majority of even order harmonics with a very small proportion of odd order harmonics depending on how symmetrical the clipping is. Contrary to popular opinion, the combination of the fundamental signal and even order harmonics is not particularly pretty from either a electrical waveform or aural standpoint. Push-pull devices on the other hand distort more evenly on each half of the waveform and generate odd order harmonics almost exclusively (there is always some degree of uneveness depending on how closely the tubes are matched, so some even order harmonics do creep in). This is why preamp distortion is commonly perceived as harsh and buzzy while power amp distortion is usually described as horn-like and musically pleasing. However, since SS devices clip more harshly than tubes, it is probably fair to say that as far as output stage distortion goes, SS devices generate more even order harmonics than tubes. And they sound terrible because of it.

And no, I have no intention of proving this to you. It is simple electronic design fact. Feel free to research it yourself.


I've stated, in another thread, that I don't really expect anyone here to prove anything. Some of the comments I've made in this thread are not in the context of comments I've made in other threads and after reviewing this thread I can see how I've come across as a troll. My apologies. I really do respect the knowledge and opinions regularly made here. Guys are also very helpful and encouraging.

I also appreciate you coming up with real comments.

I agree with your comments on the harmonics. I've said as much more than once in other threads. However, there is plenty of room for debate on distortion characteristics.

Per your suggestion here is some research;

"How about the hyped soft clipping? Well, we see that it’s pretty non-existent: The
amplifier clips as abruptly as an ordinary solid-state amplifier. Don’t be fooled to
think that the sudden and harsh clipping is due to use of solid-state technology; it’s
not. Even an all-tube amplifier may clip in a fairly similar manner – and sometimes
even harsher depending on the circuit. For example, the all-tube output stage of the
Univox U-1000 amplifier clips pretty much like an ordinary solid-state operational
amplifier.
It also suffers from poor clipping recovery that shows up as “rail sticking”!
It should be noted that the concerned amplifier uses only a very small amount of
negative feedback so we should ignore that typical “excuse” for poor performance."

Image

"Soft clipping mostly seems to be a device-related characteristic, which is shown by the
comparison of Fender Bassman 5F6A and Marshall JTM45. The output stage of both
amplifiers is identical with the exception of different power tubes and feedback
takeoff point. Fender uses 6L6GC (which is the same tube used by aforementioned
Music Man and Univox amplifiers) while Marshall uses EL34. The difference in
clipping behavior is striking! Again this difference cannot be explained by the use of
higher amount of negative feedback since Marshall employs more NFB than Fender:
If you look at the decibel scale, the plots show how the effect of feedback flattens the
frequency response of JTM45, thus “tightening” its tone."

Image

Reference: Solid-State Guitar Amplifies - Teemu Kyttälä


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