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Post subject: Fender Tweed Princeton 1957 vs 1964 BF Vibro-Champ
Posted: Sat Jan 07, 2012 8:38 am
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The Champ is an AA764 curcuit

The princton is an 5F2A curcuit

Both are in my price range.

Some opinions would be great,timely reponses are apreciated greatly.


The prices are so good that i might be able to nab both,resonably.

What do you guys think??


Thanks


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Post subject: Re: Fender Tweed Princeton 1957 vs 1964 BF Vibro-Champ
Posted: Sat Jan 07, 2012 10:03 am
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Aspiring Musician
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I own a 1956 Harvard (5F10. Serial # H 00050), a BF Champ, and a SF Vibro Champ. The circuits weren't fooled with too much in the Champ series once they got to the BF era. The BF and SF champ circuits are pretty similar. People just seem to like the BF's better.

I'd pull the trigger on the 64 Vibro Champ in a heartbeat.

The Tweed amps have a different tone than the later amps. They aren't for everyone. They are a touch darker and cruncher then the clean tones the BF's era would introduce. Meaning, a lot of people prefer the Blackface era amps over the tweeds. I love the tone of my Harvard. If you like the tone of the Princeton, then grab it. The narrow panel amps are highly sought after and seem to have the tweed tone that most people prefer. Its not like they show up at reasonable prices very often.

This is a real nice vid that compares the progression/development of the Tweed amps. (It focuses on the Super) This gives a nice comparison of how the tone changed over time as the Tweed amps were developed.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m4xbAcNx-WI

You might actually find the Princeton can get a bit louder than the Vibro, even though they are both rated at 4 1/2 to 6 watts. My Harvard is easily the loudest amp I own. (All of mine are small watters - I also have a couple of SF Princetons (non-verb and reverb))

Don't get caught up in circuit numbers and whether this one has a filter choke or not... plug your guitar into the amp.... using your cords.... and see if you like the tone of the amp. Its really about your ear. And honestly.... due to their age and the hand-crafted manufacturing process, vintage tweeds can sound differently from one princeton to the next.

My 2 cents worth :D


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Post subject: Re: Fender Tweed Princeton 1957 vs 1964 BF Vibro-Champ
Posted: Sat Jan 07, 2012 6:12 pm
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Thanks for the reply,I will be sure to take that into account.


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Post subject: Re: Fender Tweed Princeton 1957 vs 1964 BF Vibro-Champ
Posted: Sat Jan 07, 2012 6:36 pm
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FWIW... you can revert the VC back to the 5F1 circuit pretty easily. Bypass the tone stack that chokes the ouput. Drop plate voltage to the input stage. Revert the the global feedback to 5F1. BUT, the extra 12AX7 used for the vibrato section... makes for a different tone. Even with the Vibrato knobs turned down.

With a good speaker... sounds pretty dang good. And LOUD, with that tone stack bypassed.


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Post subject: Re: Fender Tweed Princeton 1957 vs 1964 BF Vibro-Champ
Posted: Sat Jan 07, 2012 7:14 pm
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Hey,Thanks for that tip. 'preciate these timely reponses,gotta make a decision very soon :shock:


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Post subject: Re: Fender Tweed Princeton 1957 vs 1964 BF Vibro-Champ
Posted: Sat Jan 07, 2012 7:22 pm
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You realize that the 5F2-A tweed Princeton has a very similar circuit to the tweed Champs? Both are single-ended. I believe the Princeton has a bigger speaker. But, the output difference between these Princetons and the Champ is not that much different.


http://www.webphix.com/schematic%20heav ... _schem.pdf


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Post subject: Re: Fender Tweed Princeton 1957 vs 1964 BF Vibro-Champ
Posted: Sat Jan 07, 2012 7:46 pm
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Yes it did occur to me that they would be relatively similar. Thats why i'm leaning towards to Vibro-Champ. Price is also a factor,but i figured since they are similar why not grab a champ sometime later for almost half of the princeton.

If I do go with the vibro,any tips or advice on anything?

Thanks


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Post subject: Re: Fender Tweed Princeton 1957 vs 1964 BF Vibro-Champ
Posted: Sat Jan 07, 2012 10:00 pm
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The amp may need a new cap can (20/20/20 at 475VDC). These are available from AES (tubesandmore.com). I use the FP or JJ cans.

This is just a suggestion, but if you find that the amp seems to be lack midrange and the tone controls need to be cranked to get any tone--- you can bypass the tone stack pretty easily. That 250 pico-farad does choke the input tube feed to the power tube. There's a quick mod to replace that cap with a 0.02mfd cap, like in the 5F1 tweed. Much better flow of tone from the 12AX7 to the 6V6GT.

I've done several SF and BF Champs and VC back to 5F1 circuit (plate voltage on the input and global feedback)--- with good results. You get more volume. Better midrange. And that extra 12AX7 (for the VC) adds a richer tone to the amp, than the tweed 5F1 that run a single 12AX7.

Just a thought, to keep in mind. If you decide to do this mod, post an email on the board--- and I can send you the recipe. I make the mods, so that reversing back to stock is an easy process. Very similar to the Gerald Weber mod to the VC.

http://www.ampwares.com/schematics/cham ... _aa764.pdf


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Post subject: Re: Fender Tweed Princeton 1957 vs 1964 BF Vibro-Champ
Posted: Sun Jan 08, 2012 7:03 am
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Aspiring Musician
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Remstar - Just be aware any mods you make to a vintage amp reduces its value. If either of these amps is all original, I would not be converting the circuits. Just something to consider.


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Post subject: Re: Fender Tweed Princeton 1957 vs 1964 BF Vibro-Champ
Posted: Sun Jan 08, 2012 7:34 am
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Yep,both of them are all original,phansphord. I agree with the no mods to originals thing.

BMW, thanks for the tips,they are sure to make things easier no matter which amp i choose.

Next time I post i might have a new amp :)


Thanks again


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Post subject: Re: Fender Tweed Princeton 1957 vs 1964 BF Vibro-Champ
Posted: Sun Jan 08, 2012 3:28 pm
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remstar wrote:
Next time I post i might have a new amp :)


Post photos. :D


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Post subject: Re: Fender Tweed Princeton 1957 vs 1964 BF Vibro-Champ
Posted: Sun Jan 08, 2012 6:45 pm
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I don't recommend altering circuit helter-skelter, either. But, the Gerald Weber mod to 5F1 on the Vibro-Champ is a well-known, sound mod, that is easily reversible.

Mods to tone can be a good mod. If done conservatively with good electronics behind it. Like three-prong outlet wiring.


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Post subject: Re: Fender Tweed Princeton 1957 vs 1964 BF Vibro-Champ
Posted: Mon Jan 09, 2012 6:45 am
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BMW2002Ti wrote:
I don't recommend altering circuit helter-skelter, either. But, the Gerald Weber mod to 5F1 on the Vibro-Champ is a well-known, sound mod, that is easily reversible.

Mods to tone can be a good mod. If done conservatively with good electronics behind it. Like three-prong outlet wiring.


Understandable. And to each his own. Making those mods on a SF champ seems reasonable, implying someone make those to a 1964 BF Vibro - the first year of production - is injudicious.

It would seem a wiser recommendation, if someone would want a 5F1 clone - which is what converting a vintage Fender amp as you recommend would be - to recommend they simple buy a clone kit. Or to modify a Chinese Champion 600. Even in monetary terms.

On one hand, we talk about the genius of Leo Fender, then on the other people talk about hacking up his circuits to "improve" tone. It seems disingenuous.


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