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Post subject: What's the Champ of the Champs?
Posted: Mon Dec 26, 2011 11:37 pm
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Best to get a vintage one off ebay? A reissue? Which model? Or best to build your own with one of the kits? If so, which kit is the best? (best quality components, best cabinet, best instructions, etc.) I realize I'm spilling gasoline and lighting a match here, but that's ok. :) Let the arguments begin. Just be respectful of everybody's opinion. And no hawking your own products, per forum rules.

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Post subject: Re: What's the Champ of the Champs?
Posted: Tue Dec 27, 2011 1:44 am
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IMHO.... the blackface or silverface Vibro-Champ with a good speaker is one of the best amps. Even if you turn the vibrato/tremolo section (Speed/Intensity) to zero--- the extra 12AX7 adds to the tone compared to the single 12AX7 of the tweed Champs.

And the Vibrato is something you'll have a hard time duplicating with any pedal. Now, as for "sexy looks," it's hard to beat a nice tweed. So, it depends on what you want out of your amp. Really can't lose either way... as the single ended topology and the 5Y3GT/6V6GT combo is one of the best EVER to hit the planet Earth.

And either with a Fender Reverb Unit is Heaven on Earth... no jive.

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Post subject: Re: What's the Champ of the Champs?
Posted: Tue Dec 27, 2011 3:41 pm
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It seems that Fender discontinued the '59 Champ Reissue in favor of the Eric Clapton Champ. True?

Also anybody have the new Champion 600? Only $240 list! Rectifier tube, 12AX7 pre tube, 6L6 power tube. 6" speaker. Anybody tried it?

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Fender Guitars: Am Std Tele, EC Strat, AVRI '62 Jazzmaster, Lee Ranaldo Jazzmaster, Thurston Moore Jazzmaster.
Fender Amps: '61 Brownface Deluxe, '65 Champ, '59 Bassman Ltd, Tweed Champ clone, Tweed Deluxe clone.


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Post subject: Re: What's the Champ of the Champs?
Posted: Tue Dec 27, 2011 4:00 pm
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IceTre, think it's a 6V6GT output tube. I've modified four now. New speakers. And some coupling caps. 0.1mfd, 0.047mfd, & 250 pico-farad silver mica cap in the tone stack. Does make a difference. Better high notes. Better bass. I have not redone the grille. Though I hear that is part of the muffled high notes problem.

I am very lucky to own an original 1948 Champion 600. So, the first time I got a 600 RI in; I A-B them. Maybe, after the mods the two sound about the same at "12." Up to that volume, the old beast kills the RI. FWIW.

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Post subject: Re: What's the Champ of the Champs?
Posted: Tue Dec 27, 2011 4:18 pm
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IceTre wrote:
Also anybody have the new Champion 600? Only $240 list! Rectifier tube, 12AX7 pre tube, 6L6 power tube. 6" speaker. Anybody tried it?


Wrong forum for this discussion but here is the thread for my modded Champion 600:

viewtopic.php?f=13&t=63259

By the way, this amp has a solid state recitifier, 6V6GT power tube, and has been around for quite a few years. It is far from being a new model.

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Post subject: Re: What's the Champ of the Champs?
Posted: Tue Dec 27, 2011 5:48 pm
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BMV, thanks for correcting me, it is 6V6 power tube, not 6L6. And the rectifier is solid state, not tube. Still it seems amazing they're listing this for only $240, which means probably $160 in the stores. What's the catch? Also, what didn't you like about the stock speaker? Maybe that's the catch. Can the '59 Champ or Eric Clapton Champ that lists for $1000 be that much more expensive to build?

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Fender Guitars: Am Std Tele, EC Strat, AVRI '62 Jazzmaster, Lee Ranaldo Jazzmaster, Thurston Moore Jazzmaster.
Fender Amps: '61 Brownface Deluxe, '65 Champ, '59 Bassman Ltd, Tweed Champ clone, Tweed Deluxe clone.


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Post subject: Re: What's the Champ of the Champs?
Posted: Tue Dec 27, 2011 5:57 pm
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IceTre wrote:
BMV, thanks for correcting me, it is 6V6 power tube, not 6L6. And the rectifier is solid state, not tube. Still it seems amazing they're listing this for only $240, which means probably $160 in the stores. What's the catch? Also, what didn't you like about the stock speaker? Maybe that's the catch. Can the '59 Champ or Eric Clapton Champ that lists for $1000 be that much more expensive to build?


Take a look at my thread that I posted above and you will understand why the Champion 600 sells for $150 and the 59 Champ sells for $1000. :lol:

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Post subject: Re: What's the Champ of the Champs?
Posted: Tue Dec 27, 2011 6:20 pm
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bluesky636 wrote:
IceTre wrote:
BMV, thanks for correcting me, it is 6V6 power tube, not 6L6. And the rectifier is solid state, not tube. Still it seems amazing they're listing this for only $240, which means probably $160 in the stores. What's the catch? Also, what didn't you like about the stock speaker? Maybe that's the catch. Can the '59 Champ or Eric Clapton Champ that lists for $1000 be that much more expensive to build?


Take a look at my thread that I posted above and you will understand why the Champion 600 sells for $150 and the 59 Champ sells for $1000. :lol:


Interesting thread. Sounds like you had a good time with the mods, and a little aggravation, too. :) So the answer to my question, I think you're implying, is that the stock Champion 600 has cheap parts, and the EC Champ has quality parts?

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Website: http://www.robroper.com
Fender Guitars: Am Std Tele, EC Strat, AVRI '62 Jazzmaster, Lee Ranaldo Jazzmaster, Thurston Moore Jazzmaster.
Fender Amps: '61 Brownface Deluxe, '65 Champ, '59 Bassman Ltd, Tweed Champ clone, Tweed Deluxe clone.


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Post subject: Re: What's the Champ of the Champs?
Posted: Tue Dec 27, 2011 6:45 pm
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IceTre wrote:
Interesting thread. Sounds like you had a good time with the mods, and a little aggravation, too. :) So the answer to my question, I think you're implying, is that the stock Champion 600 has cheap parts, and the EC Champ has quality parts?


No aggravation at all. All of my tests/experiments had a purpose.

I'm not implying anything.

The Champion 600 is a PCB based amp built in China with cheap Chinese parts and labor using a circuit that bears no resemblance to the original Champion 600.

The EC Champ is a hand wired eyelet board using (hopefully) high quality parts and made in America.

Got it?

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Post subject: Re: What's the Champ of the Champs?
Posted: Thu Dec 29, 2011 9:40 am
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IceTre wrote:
Best to get a vintage one off ebay? A reissue? Which model? Or best to build your own with one of the kits?


late to the discuss... but here's my 2¢ worth.

I wouldn't say one vintage Champ is better than other. Its really about what era might sound best to your ear. I think - others seem to agree - there not much difference between the Blackface Champs and the Silverface Champs. CBS didn't tinker with the circuits on the small amps. Budget wise, the SF Champs can be had for a fair price. The tweed champs are a bit hot and cruncher. If you can test drive one and are willing to fork over the cash, you'll probably be happy.

The key thing.... in support of bluesky636's comments..... vintage Champs are hand-wired, point-to-point, made in the USofA. They are repairable and maintainable. The modern amps with the PCB's are basically toast once the PCB goes bad.

I did pick-up a Champion 600 RI this past summer. Fun amp. I changed the grill cloth to allow the speaker to breath and put a vintage RCA 6v6 (circle logo) and a JJ 12AX7 in it. It barks very nicely and can get crunchy much quicker than the vintage Champs I own. I got it on Craigslist for $100. Its a deal I would do again.
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My Champs include - the forementioned Champion 600 RI, a 1966 BF Champ, and a 1974 SF Vibro Champ. I enjoy them all. I got all of them off of CL for far less than dealers are asking and I have had zero issues with them. If I could find one at a price agreeable to me (I'm a cheap SOB :lol: ), I'd add a 5F1 Tweed Champ or a vintage Champion 600.


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Post subject: Re: What's the Champ of the Champs?
Posted: Thu Dec 29, 2011 11:53 am
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phansford wrote:
IceTre wrote:
Best to get a vintage one off ebay? A reissue? Which model? Or best to build your own with one of the kits?


late to the discuss... but here's my 2¢ worth.

I wouldn't say one vintage Champ is better than other. Its really about what era might sound best to your ear. I think - others seem to agree - there not much difference between the Blackface Champs and the Silverface Champs. CBS didn't tinker with the circuits on the small amps. Budget wise, the SF Champs can be had for a fair price. The tweed champs are a bit hot and cruncher. If you can test drive one and are willing to fork over the cash, you'll probably be happy.

The key thing.... in support of bluesky636's comments..... vintage Champs are hand-wired, point-to-point, made in the USofA. They are repairable and maintainable. The modern amps with the PCB's are basically toast once the PCB goes bad.

I did pick-up a Champion 600 RI this past summer. Fun amp. I changed the grill cloth to allow the speaker to breath and put a vintage RCA 6v6 (circle logo) and a JJ 12AX7 in it. It barks very nicely and can get crunchy much quicker than the vintage Champs I own. I got it on Craigslist for $100. Its a deal I would do again.

My Champs include - the forementioned Champion 600 RI, a 1966 BF Champ, and a 1974 SF Vibro Champ. I enjoy them all. I got all of them off of CL for far less than dealers are asking and I have had zero issues with them. If I could find one at a price agreeable to me (I'm a cheap SOB :lol: ), I'd add a 5F1 Tweed Champ or a vintage Champion 600.


The circuit that Fender based the current Champion 600 on is the Blackface/Silverface AA764 circuit but with a fixed tonestack:

http://ampwares.com/schematics/champ_aa764.pdf

The original Champion 800/600 was a 5C1:

http://ampwares.com/schematics/champ_5c1.pdf

I converted my Champion 600 to a 5F1 (except for the power supply circuit which I left stock):

http://ampwares.com/schematics/champ_5f1.pdf

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Post subject: Re: What's the Champ of the Champs?
Posted: Thu Dec 29, 2011 6:11 pm
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Thanks for the education guys. I bid on a '57 Reissue on ebay, I did a max bid of $526 and got outbid. I was tempted to go higher but didn't, mainly because I think it will be fun to buy a kit and build my own. Never did that before, but the posts by some of you and in other forums has got me curious. I think I'll start a new thread on what are the best kits, I've found at least a half dozen out there so far.

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Website: http://www.robroper.com
Fender Guitars: Am Std Tele, EC Strat, AVRI '62 Jazzmaster, Lee Ranaldo Jazzmaster, Thurston Moore Jazzmaster.
Fender Amps: '61 Brownface Deluxe, '65 Champ, '59 Bassman Ltd, Tweed Champ clone, Tweed Deluxe clone.


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Post subject: Re: What's the Champ of the Champs?
Posted: Thu Dec 29, 2011 6:38 pm
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Bluesky, was your Champion 600 "boardless?" You know I kinda like the tone of the 6SJ7/5693 over the 12AX7. Bluesier onset of OD, IMHO.

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Post subject: Re: What's the Champ of the Champs?
Posted: Thu Dec 29, 2011 7:26 pm
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IceTre wrote:
It seems that Fender discontinued the '59 Champ Reissue in favor of the Eric Clapton Champ. True?


Looking a the website, that seems to be the case..... it might be an issue of production capacity and product redundancy. It also adds to their value and interest if it was a short production run. Its good marketing on Fender's part. It keeps people interested in their current product lines.

FWIW - While you might be ready to build a clone kit, there are other manufacturer's that are producing 5F1 clones. (you might know that already?) Victoria Amps makes one. They seem to get positive reviews. If you looking on ebay and craigslist.... you might consider expanding your options beyond Fender specifically.


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Post subject: Re: What's the Champ of the Champs?
Posted: Thu Dec 29, 2011 10:32 pm
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BMW2002Ti wrote:
Bluesky, was your Champion 600 "boardless?" You know I kinda like the tone of the 6SJ7/5693 over the 12AX7. Bluesier onset of OD, IMHO.


No.

You can see the holes where the components I removed were located. C3 (preamp cathode bypass cap) is gone now also. The white caps are the new coupling caps.

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Modified input circuit:

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