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Post subject: DRRI upgrades
Posted: Mon Apr 25, 2011 6:03 pm
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Hey guys,

I recently got a relatively new Deluxe Reverb Reissue and spoke to an amp tech about upgrades people commonly make to these things. He suggested upgrading the output transformer and the speaker. I know people on this board use/are familiar with the reissue amps so I'd like to hear any input from the tone hounds out there. I'm thinking the OT and maybe the filter caps and installing a pot that lets you turn off the vibrato circuit. Any other tone enhancing mods you guys have tried or think might work? Thanks


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Post subject: Re: DRRI upgrades
Posted: Mon Apr 25, 2011 7:43 pm
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http://reitzel.com/schematics/Fender_De ... ations.pdf

some good info here. Also from what I have heard the main changes are a better speaker and better quality tubes.

How do like the way it sounds as is??. Thats the most important issue...:)
Good luck!!


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Post subject: Re: DRRI upgrades
Posted: Mon Apr 25, 2011 7:50 pm
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There's nothing at all wrong with the OEM output tranny. Where that suggestion came from, and the reason for it, I haven't a clue.

The filter and bias caps are indeed crap. They're adequate for the task, but only insofar as the 5-year warranty extends. Beyond that and likely they'll be ready for replacement. F&T makes the best electrolytics bar none, followed (closely) by the Sprague Atoms. Both are expensive and worth every penny.

Rather than drill an additional hole somewhere in the chassic for a tremolo kill switch, inquire about the possiblility of changing the pot for the front-panel speed control to one with a push-pull switch to disable the circuit.

Speakers are highly subjective. Thus, you might listen to as many types beforehand to get an idea of their sonic characteristics. The alnico types are noted for their warmth and compression when overdriven while the ceramic types deliver a brighter, more modern tone.

You might also experiment with different brands of tubes -- many of the currently-available re-issue bottles produce markedly different tones when compared to the OEM glass in your amp. As well, most new amps are biased pretty cool to extend the life of the tubes. This practice does not necessarily translate into the best sound that the amp is capable of. If you swap power tubes, be sure to re-bias (or have a qualified tech do it).

Best of luck, HTH

Arjay

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"Here's why reliability is job one: A great sounding amp that breaks down goes from being a favorite piece of gear to a useless piece of crap in less time than it takes to read this sentence." -- BRUCE ZINKY


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Post subject: Re: DRRI upgrades
Posted: Mon Apr 25, 2011 9:15 pm
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Great points.

mxvin: I mostly like the overall sound of the amp, but, like a lot of us, want the tone to be "better", and figure there might be some collective intelligence here that could suggest some universally agreed upon improvements. A few little things annoy me about the tone. For example the amp sounds like its overwhelmed by humbuckers. The signal sounds muddled, like its too much for the amp. I run these pickups through my SF Bassman head and they sound great, so its not them. I have tried using the #2 inputs in channel 1 & 2. the only way I have gotten them to sound okay is using a 12at7 preamp in channel 1, plugged into input 2.

The tech suggested changing the OT and speaker because they are the last (and thus most important, in his logic) parts of the signal chain.

Arjay, when you mentioned tubes, did you mean preamp, power tubes or both? It has groove tubes 6v6-S for power tubes. Can you recommend something preferable? I did hear that about the bias, and was going to have the tech rebias them so they are less cold. Also, you recommend V30's for Bassman/Bandmaster heads. In your opinion would those work in this type of amp? (completely off topic: what does "HTH" mean in your signature?)


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Post subject: Re: DRRI upgrades
Posted: Mon Apr 25, 2011 9:47 pm
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s3mamill wrote:
Arjay, when you mentioned tubes, did you mean preamp, power tubes or both? It has groove tubes 6v6-S for power tubes. Can you recommend something preferable? I did hear that about the bias, and was going to have the tech rebias them so they are less cold. Also, you recommend V30's for Bassman/Bandmaster heads. In your opinion would those work in this type of amp? (completely off topic: what does "HTH" mean in your signature?)


Both pre-amp and power amp tubes. It's been my observation with the majority of new and late-model re-issues that the OEM glass is selected based on bulk wholesale pricing rather than audiophonic quality. Typically, many of these bottles rattle, become microphonic, and/or outright fail after only a few months -- sometimes even the day the amp is uncrated at a store. I can recommend plenty. But you're likely to receive a hundred different recommendations from a hundred different forum members. Ergo, I'll refrain from goring anyone's sacred ox. I use vintage NOS tubes in my DRRI: specifically, gray-plate GE 6V6GT's biased at 24 mA. My pre-amp tubes are a mix of US-made NOS of varying manufacturers -- some commercial, some mil-spec JAN's. My rectifier, incredibly, is the GT-branded GZ34/5AR4 that came in the amp when new (some 17 years ago -- go figure!). I've logged approximately 220 gigs with the amp thus far, with no reportable issues.

The V30 is a very fine speaker but IMO it works better in a bass-reflex enclosure than an open-back combo. As well, it's "British" voicing often masks the "Fender clean" that blackfaces are traditionally known for. It really depends upon the type of music you play. Regardless, give your OEM speaker some time to break in before you decide to replace it. All new speakers irrespective of the brand will sound sterile and stiff. They need 20-30 hours of play before their true tone will become apparent.

HTH = "hope this helps"

HTH

:mrgreen:

Arjay

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"Here's why reliability is job one: A great sounding amp that breaks down goes from being a favorite piece of gear to a useless piece of crap in less time than it takes to read this sentence." -- BRUCE ZINKY


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Post subject: Re: DRRI upgrades
Posted: Tue Apr 26, 2011 4:56 am
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s3mamill wrote:
Great points.

mxvin: I mostly like the overall sound of the amp, but, like a lot of us, want the tone to be "better", and figure there might be some collective intelligence here that could suggest some universally agreed upon improvements. A few little things annoy me about the tone. For example the amp sounds like its overwhelmed by humbuckers. The signal sounds muddled, like its too much for the amp. I run these pickups through my SF Bassman head and they sound great, so its not them. I have tried using the #2 inputs in channel 1 & 2. the only way I have gotten them to sound okay is using a 12at7 preamp in channel 1, plugged into input 2.

The tech suggested changing the OT and speaker because they are the last (and thus most important, in his logic) parts of the signal chain.

Arjay, when you mentioned tubes, did you mean preamp, power tubes or both? It has groove tubes 6v6-S for power tubes. Can you recommend something preferable? I did hear that about the bias, and was going to have the tech rebias them so they are less cold. Also, you recommend V30's for Bassman/Bandmaster heads. In your opinion would those work in this type of amp? (completely off topic: what does "HTH" mean in your signature?)


To add what with Arjay said about tubes.....like all things they are subjective as is the "tone" you are looking for. I have had a 1965 Super Reverb since 1994 and just as recently as 2007 I got to exactly where I love it. The point is it may take may incarnations of tubes and speakers to get what you are after. Def hammer that speaker. Break in is a must.

I have some old 6V6 tubes that I would be willing to part with. They are not NOS or even if they are I couldn't verify that. But all are good functionally.


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Post subject: Re: DRRI upgrades
Posted: Tue Apr 26, 2011 5:26 am
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I don't own a DRRI and never have,but have several vintage DRs and like it was mentioned,you will have to experiment with tubes and speakers....I always have had to.
I don't know about the Reissues but all the old amps have different tones somewhat but still sound like the Deluxe Reverb,some are brighter and some a little darker.
In buying a speaker,think of what the amp sounds like and what you want to change and like Arjay said,choose a speaker on the basis of how it sounds,bright or darker,early breakup or later...it's a game called tone chasing and anyone who suggests a couple of changes to get what you want has never done much of it...they're just echoing what they've most likely heard someone else say...like the guy who said change the output transformer,based on what?


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Post subject: Re: DRRI upgrades
Posted: Tue Apr 26, 2011 5:55 am
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Rebelsoul wrote:
I don't own a DRRI and never have,but have several vintage DRs and like it was mentioned,you will have to experiment with tubes and speakers....I always have had to.
I don't know about the Reissues but all the old amps have different tones somewhat but still sound like the Deluxe Reverb,some are brighter and some a little darker.
In buying a speaker,think of what the amp sounds like and what you want to change and like Arjay said,choose a speaker on the basis of how it sounds,bright or darker,early breakup or later...it's a game called tone chasing and anyone who suggests a couple of changes to get what you want has never done much of it...they're just echoing what they've most likely heard someone else say...like the guy who said change the output transformer,based on what?

++1....
I have had many many tubes in and out of my DR and SR. Speakers as well. Thats the fun AND frustrating part of the whole process.....:)


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Post subject: Re: DRRI upgrades
Posted: Tue Apr 26, 2011 6:01 am
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Yep it is fun to me as well,but can be a little work...to bias tubes in my '60 Super,I had my buddy add a little adjustable resistor type thing,can't remember what it's called right now :oops: ..but I have to remove the chassis to change the bias,but I have fun anyway.


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Post subject: Re: DRRI upgrades
Posted: Tue Apr 26, 2011 6:33 am
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Rebelsoul wrote:
Yep it is fun to me as well,but can be a little work...to bias tubes in my '60 Super,I had my buddy add a little adjustable resistor type thing,can't remember what it's called right now :oops: ..but I have to remove the chassis to change the bias,but I have fun anyway.

A "decade box" ( generic name) ....they have them for capicitors as well.


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Post subject: Re: DRRI upgrades
Posted: Tue Apr 26, 2011 6:53 am
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mxvin wrote:
Rebelsoul wrote:
Yep it is fun to me as well,but can be a little work...to bias tubes in my '60 Super,I had my buddy add a little adjustable resistor type thing,can't remember what it's called right now :oops: ..but I have to remove the chassis to change the bias,but I have fun anyway.

A "decade box" ( generic name) ....they have them for capicitors as well.

here's the link to the Super about 4 or 5 pics down you can see how he installed it.
viewtopic.php?f=12&t=47407


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Post subject: Re: DRRI upgrades
Posted: Tue Apr 26, 2011 3:14 pm
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s3mamill wrote:
For example the amp sounds like its overwhelmed by humbuckers. The signal sounds muddled, like its too much for the amp. I run these pickups through my SF Bassman head and they sound great, so its not them. I have tried using the #2 inputs in channel 1 & 2. the only way I have gotten them to sound okay is using a 12at7 preamp in channel 1, plugged into input 2.

DRRI + humbuckers will sound very sweet once it's dialed in. You'll need to turn the bass down, 2-3, even 0 sometimes... the DRRI will always be a DRRI, don't expect it to stay clean with humbuckers, Bassman is not the same amp... I've done lots of experimenting with mine to get it where it is now. Here's a list of things you can do:

- get you some NOS 6V6, I prefer RCA, make sure the bias is done properly, this took care of most of the problems with the low end and the muddy sound with humbuckers.
- get the right preamp tubes, lots of options out there depends on what you're looking for... make sure you get the best balanced 12AT7 for the phase inverter you can afford
- perform the Fritz mod, if you find the amp too bright
- if that's not enough you can start looking at a different speaker, again many options out there... if you want to keep it clean and better low end then you'll want an efficient ceramic speaker, if you want a warm tone with early break-up go for alnico.

I would start with some new power tubes and a bias.


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Post subject: Re: DRRI upgrades
Posted: Tue Apr 26, 2011 9:14 pm
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You guys are great! Thanks for the advice.

Cedar: I'll try that with the bass, mine is usually up higher than 4. Is the Fritz mod the one that lets the reverb/trem run on both channels? If so, i asked the tech about making this possible (I didn't call it the Fritz mod, but this is what I described) and he said one could do it, but it makes the amp significantly noisier. I think I'll give my speaker more time to break it before I consider changing it.

Rebel: I don't think I understand the purpose of the decade box. It lets you more easily adjust the bias when you swap power tubes? Is that the idea?

Arjay: HTH seems an appropriate signature. I find almost all your posts helpful and informative. Thanks for sharing what you know.

A lot of concurrence on NOS tubes that are properly biased. Is ebay the best place to get NOS tubes, or is there a reputable online retailer people like?


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Post subject: Re: DRRI upgrades
Posted: Tue Apr 26, 2011 9:37 pm
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I've bought/sold/traded NOS tubes with some members of this very forum (shhh......don't tell Brad!) and there are a few other websites that openly permit such practices. Ebay is also a valid source but avoid any vendors with less-than-stellar feedback.

Technically there are two "Fritz mods". One clips the bright cap in the vibrato channel (there is no equivalent component in the "normal" side of the house) to fatten up the midrange and eliminate the ice-pickiness that some players experience with certain speaker types. The second mod makes the reverb and trem operable on both channels and re-aligns the signal path so both channels are "in phase" with one another (this is particularly useful when "channel-jumpering" or using an A/B/Y box to turn the DRRI into a channel-switching amp).

Best of luck

Arjay

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"Here's why reliability is job one: A great sounding amp that breaks down goes from being a favorite piece of gear to a useless piece of crap in less time than it takes to read this sentence." -- BRUCE ZINKY


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Post subject: Re: DRRI upgrades
Posted: Wed Apr 27, 2011 1:05 am
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Yeah,on this amp,the 1960 Super,it's a fixed bias with no adjustment potentiometer,so this little component takes the place of the pot without drilling a hole in the chassis so you can bias the power tubes....your DRRI should have the bias adjustment pot already I believe,and you won't need this...but here's a pic since we're talking about it.
Image


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