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Post subject: Blackface Bandmaster vs. Blackface Tremolux
Posted: Sun Oct 31, 2010 6:28 pm
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For practical purposes, what's the difference in sound between these two?

Thanks in advance for any input. :!:


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Posted: Sun Oct 31, 2010 6:55 pm
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About three hundred dollars.

Arjay

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Posted: Sun Oct 31, 2010 8:28 pm
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Actually... more like $100. :D

I'm curious because the two amp heads have (as near as I can tell) identical features and inputs.

Ie-- two 'normal' channels, and two vibrato channels, with identical speed and intensity knobs.

So I'm unclear on what a Tremolux offens that a Bandmaster doesn't.


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Posted: Sun Oct 31, 2010 8:35 pm
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The Bandmaster's iron is slightly heftier than the Tremolux's, the latter of which uses the same trannies as the non-verb Vibrolux. Thus, the Bandmaster pushes its plate voltages a skosh higher which yields more clean headroom and higher rated output (40W vs 35W). AB763 Bandmasters routinely go for around six bills on Ebay while the last Tremolux I saw (last night in fact) had a BIN of $899.

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Posted: Sun Oct 31, 2010 9:14 pm
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Art, I never played on a BF Tremolux, but looking at the schemo versus the Bandmaster it seems that the BMR places quite a bit more voltage onto the 12AX7's (275 versus 200, first gain stage) and 6L6GC's (440 versus 415). Me thinks that the Tremolux should sound quite a bit more spongier (Bluesier) than the Bandmaster.

Just a WAG...


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Posted: Sun Oct 31, 2010 9:29 pm
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The Bandmaster Reverb traces no ancestry whatsoever to the AB763 blackface Bandmaster. It was introduced in the late summer of 1968 and shares its AA768 circuit with the silverface Super Reverb of the same era (the 4Ω OT is the sole difference). Thus, it's an apples-to-raspberries metaphor in relationship to a comparison with the Tremolux.

HTH

Arjay

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Posted: Sun Oct 31, 2010 9:37 pm
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Arjay, I was comparing the non-reverb models. See schemos:

http://www.ampwares.com/schematics/bandmaster_ab763.pdf

http://www.ampwares.com/schematics/tremolux_aa763.pdf

Both the July '63 circuit. Thanks!


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Posted: Sun Oct 31, 2010 10:09 pm
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You referenced a "BMR" -- thus I assumed (erroneously) that you intended a comparison using the reverb-equipped model.

But you're otherwise correct in analyzing the two schem's......the Tremolux does indeed break up and compress at a significantly lower volume than the Bandmaster, primarily due to those lower voltages and the more-easily saturated iron in the output stage.

Arjay

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Posted: Mon Nov 01, 2010 9:12 am
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BMW2002Ti wrote:
Art, I never played on a BF Tremolux, but looking at the schemo versus the Bandmaster it seems that the BMR places quite a bit more voltage onto the 12AX7's (275 versus 200, first gain stage) and 6L6GC's (440 versus 415). Me thinks that the Tremolux should sound quite a bit more spongier (Bluesier) than the Bandmaster.

Just a WAG...


Hey, thanks for explaining it to someone who wouldn't know watts from hertz. :lol:

I have a mint Blackface Bandmaster that I got for just under $600. I was thinking of getting a Tremolux-- mostly as a collectible, as opposed to an amp I'd expect to use frequently-- but it just makes sense (to me, anyway) to spend my money on a collectable that can actually produce a different sound than I already get from a Bandmaster.

Thanks again for the input. Feel free to add anything else about '60s Fender amp heads that a novice collector like me would want to know!


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Posted: Mon Nov 01, 2010 9:18 am
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Forrin Overest wrote:
Thanks again for the input. Feel free to add anything else about '60s Fender amp heads that a novice collector like me would want to know!


There's plenty of collective experience here FO so feel free to fire away.

I've owned them all at one time or another, with the sole exception of the Dual Showman Reverb. My current "herd" includes three Bandmasters and a blackface Showman.

Arjay

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Posted: Mon Nov 01, 2010 11:10 am
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Retroverbial wrote:
Forrin Overest wrote:
Thanks again for the input. Feel free to add anything else about '60s Fender amp heads that a novice collector like me would want to know!


There's plenty of collective experience here FO so feel free to fire away.

I've owned them all at one time or another, with the sole exception of the Dual Showman Reverb. My current "herd" includes three Bandmasters and a blackface Showman.

Arjay
Funny thing Arjay,although I've played through most "piggybacks" at times through the years I've never owned one,all my amps have been combos.
Here lately I've been thinking about buying a BF amp and cabinet of some sort.


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Posted: Mon Nov 01, 2010 11:45 am
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Rebelsoul wrote:
Retroverbial wrote:
Forrin Overest wrote:
Thanks again for the input. Feel free to add anything else about '60s Fender amp heads that a novice collector like me would want to know!


There's plenty of collective experience here FO so feel free to fire away.

I've owned them all at one time or another, with the sole exception of the Dual Showman Reverb. My current "herd" includes three Bandmasters and a blackface Showman.

Arjay
Funny thing Arjay,although I've played through most "piggybacks" at times through the years I've never owned one,all my amps have been combos.
Here lately I've been thinking about buying a BF amp and cabinet of some sort.


My regular amp is a Hot Rod Deluxe, which is perfect for soft-to-medium rock my band does. But there's something about going with vintage gear that's extra... I don't know... satisfying?

With a tube amp and a Strat with Texas Specials, a lot of classic material from the '60s has a better sound than the original recordings delivered.


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Posted: Mon Nov 01, 2010 12:18 pm
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Rebelsoul wrote:
Funny thing Arjay,although I've played through most "piggybacks" at times through the years I've never owned one,all my amps have been combos.
Here lately I've been thinking about buying a BF amp and cabinet of some sort.


Of course, my penchant for marching to the proverbial "different drummer" is notorious around these parts since I like to periodically flip things around......combos into a piggybacks, piggybacks into a combos, plus my "facelifts"......silverface to brownface, blackface to drip-edge silverface. I guess I'm doomed to remain a tinkerer (much like "Sir Leo" himself).

:mrgreen:

Arjay

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Posted: Mon Nov 01, 2010 8:15 pm
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I guess my observation would be, that the stock Tremolux used a 2X10 speaker cab(BM-2X12); Trem used a GZ34 tube rectifier(BM-ss); Trem used a parallel first cap reservior =32uf(BM-series reservior=70uf; Trem used(3) 16uf filter caps and 10k dropping resistors(BM-(3) 20uf and a 1K&4.7K); the OT was the same 125A6A. To me this all adds up to a softer, more veiled amp pushing quicker reacting speakers, than the Band Master. IMHO The difference would be worth the coin. I've heard both amps on the bandstand, at the same time, and the Tremolux was the sweeter of the two.(probably why I put a GZ34 in my '67 Bandmaster). Art

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Posted: Tue Nov 02, 2010 12:26 pm
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Art, I tried both a GZ34 and a 5U4GB in my SF BMR (running into 2 X 10 cab)... and I kinda liked the 5U4GB better (after break-in). It's a 1950's black plate TungSol. Maybe the bigger voltage drop in the 5U4GB makes the amp seem to "breath" better or have a more dramatic sustain than, say a Mullard GZ34. Anyhow, for Blues works pretty well.

Worth a try, if you have any around. Still cheaper than the Mullard or GE GZ34/5AR4.


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