It is currently Mon Mar 16, 2020 4:51 pm

All times are UTC - 7 hours



Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 34 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3  Next
Go to page 1, 2, 3  Next
Author Message
Post subject: Eric Clapton's Champ?
Posted: Tue Sep 21, 2010 7:53 pm
Offline
Hobbyist
Hobbyist

Joined: Sat Aug 07, 2010 5:31 pm
Posts: 23
I've saw it written that Slowhand recorded layla and some other songs with a Fender Champ amp. I was looking further into this today and it is true, but it was not a tweed champ but a blackface champ that looks like it is from the early to mid 60's. Were these still built by the old 5F1 specs? If not what was the model number for the circuit? Do you real amp technical folks think a person could get real close to Eric's sound out of a 5F1 clone?

[/img]


Top
Profile
Fender Play Winter Sale 2020
Post subject:
Posted: Tue Sep 21, 2010 8:27 pm
Offline
Rock Icon
Rock Icon
User avatar

Joined: Wed Mar 31, 2010 12:48 am
Posts: 26417
Location: Tombstone Territory
The blackface Champ, Vibro Champ, Princeton, and Princeton Reverb circuits were designated "AA764". These models and their nomenclature initially carried through the onset of the silverface era along with the addition of a Bronco Amp which debuted in '68 and was itself electronically identical to a Vibro Champ. In their book, Teagle & Sprung reference an AA1164 revision for the Princeton and Princeton Reverb but I have never seen one. The final variation for these two amps under the "original" circuit designation scheme was the AB1270 revision.

HTH

Arjay

_________________
"Here's why reliability is job one: A great sounding amp that breaks down goes from being a favorite piece of gear to a useless piece of crap in less time than it takes to read this sentence." -- BRUCE ZINKY


Top
Profile
Post subject:
Posted: Tue Sep 21, 2010 10:26 pm
Offline
Professional Musician
Professional Musician

Joined: Fri Jun 26, 2009 6:53 pm
Posts: 2252
Location: Harvard IL
The 5F1 and AA764 differ primarily in the pre amp and power supply sections. Could you get close ? Probably, with single coil pups. It's the note definition that would concern me. IMO The tubes and speaker in the 5F1 would be very important ingredients in the soup. Art

_________________
None of Us are free, if One of Us is chained !


Top
Profile
Post subject: Re: Eric Clapton's Champ?
Posted: Wed Sep 22, 2010 4:45 am
Offline
Aspiring Musician
Aspiring Musician

Joined: Wed Nov 14, 2007 1:29 pm
Posts: 614
Location: SW Ohio
Simpleman69 wrote:
I've saw it written that Slowhand recorded layla and some other songs with a Fender Champ amp. I was looking further into this today and it is true, but it was not a tweed champ but a blackface champ that looks like it is from the early to mid 60's. Were these still built by the old 5F1 specs?


The final production run of the "Tweed" Champ (5F1 circuit) was covered in black tolex. These amps date from 1964. A lot of people refer to these as being transitional from the tweed to blackface designs. But it is a Tweed amp by circuit and design. Only the black tolex is different.

http://www.ampwares.com/amp.asp?id=1

Image


Top
Profile
Post subject:
Posted: Wed Sep 22, 2010 5:18 am
Offline
Rock Star
Rock Star
User avatar

Joined: Wed Feb 17, 2010 11:38 am
Posts: 4333
Location: Tennessee
I used to duplicate those tones with a tweed Champ and a Les Paul or Strat easily.

Where did you find that the "Layla" Champ was a BF?
I've wondered if the whole album was only recorded with Champs cranked to the max like Tommy Dowd had said.
People to this day debate who played what and I see that many say that Duane played this or that part,and Eric did this,but if you know how Duane played,you will be surprised how much he did play in those songs.
I've read that there are at least 6 guitar tracks on Layla,alone.


Top
Profile
Post subject:
Posted: Wed Sep 22, 2010 7:34 am
Offline
Hobbyist
Hobbyist

Joined: Sat Aug 07, 2010 5:31 pm
Posts: 23
http://www.claptonweb.com/guitares2_ang.php

Scroll down almost to the bottom of the page and you will see the champ I'm speaking of, beside a pic of a Pignose, it's not like the one Phansford posted which I agree is obviously a 5F1 in a black box. The champ in the photo on this page has three widely spaced control knobs, on/off slide switch, 2 inputs, pilot lamp, and no fuse holder so that makes me near certain it's not a 5F1 circuit or even a modified version of one. I don't have that much experience at this but, I've never saw a champ like this before. BTW, for Clapton fans there are tons of good info on this site as well as actual photos of Erics amps, not ones like his, or repros, but Eric's actual amplifiers. Also according to this site and others I've read Eric layed down all the guitar tracks on the original "Layla"(Song)recording, and Duane, may he rest in peace, only played on one song on that album, "Nobody knows you when you're down and out". If I may, Rebelsoul, what part of TN? I'm in Nashville.


Top
Profile
Post subject:
Posted: Wed Sep 22, 2010 8:09 am
Offline
Aspiring Musician
Aspiring Musician

Joined: Wed Nov 14, 2007 1:29 pm
Posts: 614
Location: SW Ohio
Simpleman69 wrote:
http://www.claptonweb.com/guitares2_ang.php

Scroll down almost to the bottom of the page and you will see the champ I'm speaking of, beside a pic of a Pignose, it's not like the one Phansford posted which I agree is obviously a 5F1 in a black box. The champ in the photo on this page has three widely spaced control knobs, on/off slide switch, 2 inputs, pilot lamp, and no fuse holder so that makes me near certain it's not a 5F1 circuit or even a modified version of one. I don't have that much experience at this but, I've never saw a champ like this before. BTW, for Clapton fans there are tons of good info on this site as well as actual photos of Erics amps, not ones like his, or repros, but Eric's actual amplifiers. Also according to this site and others I've read Eric layed down all the guitar tracks on the original "Layla"(Song)recording, and Duane, may he rest in peace, only played on one song on that album, "Nobody knows you when you're down and out". If I may, Rebelsoul, what part of TN? I'm in Nashville.


I think whoever is running the fan site you linked has mistakenly posted a photo of a BF Champ amp. Its been pretty well-documented that Clapton used a tweed champ (5F1) during the Layla sessions.

http://www.gibson.com/en-us/Lifestyle/P ... orded-521/

I have a Blackface Champ like the one on the website. Its a great amp.


Top
Profile
Post subject:
Posted: Wed Sep 22, 2010 10:50 am
Offline
Rock Star
Rock Star
User avatar

Joined: Wed Feb 17, 2010 11:38 am
Posts: 4333
Location: Tennessee
Simpleman69 wrote:
http://www.claptonweb.com/guitares2_ang.php

Scroll down almost to the bottom of the page and you will see the champ I'm speaking of, beside a pic of a Pignose, it's not like the one Phansford posted which I agree is obviously a 5F1 in a black box. The champ in the photo on this page has three widely spaced control knobs, on/off slide switch, 2 inputs, pilot lamp, and no fuse holder so that makes me near certain it's not a 5F1 circuit or even a modified version of one. I don't have that much experience at this but, I've never saw a champ like this before. BTW, for Clapton fans there are tons of good info on this site as well as actual photos of Erics amps, not ones like his, or repros, but Eric's actual amplifiers. Also according to this site and others I've read Eric layed down all the guitar tracks on the original "Layla"(Song)recording, and Duane, may he rest in peace, only played on one song on that album, "Nobody knows you when you're down and out". If I may, Rebelsoul, what part of TN? I'm in Nashville.
I'm in Dickson Co. west of Nashville.
Duane played on every song including "Nobody Knows You" and after to the end of the album....he actually suggested that song,...and anybody who can't hear Duane on those songs is way misinformed.
He came into the studio after they had recorded the first 2 or 3 songs and then his influence on Eric and the rest of the band has been documented as being amazing by everyone involved.
Duane came up with the opening riff on Layla that everyone immediately recognizes...Eric has said the song was just "a simple little ditty" before Duane pushed it into the version we all know.
I haven't looked at the site you linked to but anyone who says Duane Allman only played on one song is an idiot.
I'm not calling you an idiot,but you are misinformed.


Top
Profile
Post subject:
Posted: Wed Sep 22, 2010 11:33 am
Offline
Rock Star
Rock Star
User avatar

Joined: Wed Feb 17, 2010 11:38 am
Posts: 4333
Location: Tennessee
Here's some good info on the recording of Layla and the album by the engineers who were there...lengthy,but very good.
http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/sep06/a ... s_0906.htm


Top
Profile
Post subject:
Posted: Wed Sep 22, 2010 11:56 am
Offline
Rock Icon
Rock Icon
User avatar

Joined: Wed Mar 31, 2010 12:48 am
Posts: 26417
Location: Tombstone Territory
Good stuff there, RS.

Thanks for posting!

Arjay

_________________
"Here's why reliability is job one: A great sounding amp that breaks down goes from being a favorite piece of gear to a useless piece of crap in less time than it takes to read this sentence." -- BRUCE ZINKY


Top
Profile
Post subject:
Posted: Wed Sep 22, 2010 12:52 pm
Offline
Aspiring Musician
Aspiring Musician

Joined: Wed Nov 14, 2007 1:29 pm
Posts: 614
Location: SW Ohio
Rebelsoul wrote:
I haven't looked at the site you linked to but anyone who says Duane Allman only played on one song is an idiot.


:lol: I like your dedication to Duane. :lol:

I thought all that fantastic slide work was his - particularly on Layla. Listening to that album - even today - I always imagine Clapton and Duane just sitting in the studio playing off of each other - sorta of response and answer.


Top
Profile
Post subject:
Posted: Wed Sep 22, 2010 12:57 pm
Offline
Rock Star
Rock Star
User avatar

Joined: Wed Feb 17, 2010 11:38 am
Posts: 4333
Location: Tennessee
Thanks Arjay....
for those interested,another unique thing about the Layla album is that all the tracks are in the order that they were recorded,and it's interesting to hear how things progressed while the band jammed,in fact Dowd insisted that everything they played be recorded as mentioned in the article,and the guys were jamming on "Key To The Highway" with the tape machine off.Dowd walked in and noticed it and yelled for the engineers to turn the G**D**** machine on!...that's why there's a fade in to the song in progress.
Also the surviving members of the bands like Gregg Allman and Bobby Whitlock have mentioned large jams with everyone playing....Whitlock said that somebody suggested Derek and the Dominoes and the ABB to join forces into one big band,he said "what a band that would have been!"
All that great music with a couple of Leo's Tweeds. :)


Top
Profile
Post subject:
Posted: Wed Sep 22, 2010 12:59 pm
Offline
Rock Star
Rock Star
User avatar

Joined: Wed Feb 17, 2010 11:38 am
Posts: 4333
Location: Tennessee
phansford wrote:
Rebelsoul wrote:
I haven't looked at the site you linked to but anyone who says Duane Allman only played on one song is an idiot.


:lol: I like your dedication to Duane. :lol:

I thought all that fantastic slide work was his - particularly on Layla. Listening to that album - even today - I always imagine Clapton and Duane just sitting in the studio playing off of each other - sorta of response and answer.
Thanks,he's my hero....and one of my sons is named Duane Allman. :D ...with my last name of course....I didn't like Duane's first name...Howard.


Top
Profile
Post subject:
Posted: Wed Sep 22, 2010 5:48 pm
Offline
Professional Musician
Professional Musician

Joined: Fri Jun 26, 2009 6:53 pm
Posts: 2252
Location: Harvard IL
Wow ! Good reading, thanks RS ! Art

_________________
None of Us are free, if One of Us is chained !


Top
Profile
Post subject:
Posted: Wed Sep 22, 2010 10:18 pm
Offline
Rock Star
Rock Star
User avatar

Joined: Sat Jul 03, 2010 2:18 pm
Posts: 6544
I've reverted several BF and SF Champs back to the 5E1/5F1 tweed front end (pre-amp) values. It's an easy fix, I was taught a few years ago. You change the last dropping resistor the the power filter pi-circuits from 10K-ohm, 1 watt to 22k-ohm, 1/2 watt. This powers the first section of the 12AX7 input. Then, change the global feedback resistor from 2700-ohms, 1/2 watt to 22k-ohm, 1/2 watt. Wire the GFB 22k-ohm resistor right to pin 8 of the 12AX7.

I'm not sure if EC or a tech did this mod to his Champs. But, listening to the album, his guitar does have more of a tweed tone then a BF tone.

These two changes really "browns" the BF Champ's tone. Less gain and a more subtle onset of overdrive. More responsive to user's finger input. I've done this to about 6-7 Champs & Vibro-Champs and all turned out well, IMHO. Check out the links:

http://schematicheaven.com/fenderamps/c ... _schem.pdf

http://schematicheaven.com/fenderamps/c ... _schem.pdf


Top
Profile
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 34 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3  Next
Go to page 1, 2, 3  Next

All times are UTC - 7 hours

Fender Play Winter Sale 2020

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to: