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Post subject: Old vs new
Posted: Thu Jul 29, 2010 10:04 am
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For some time now I've seriously been looking at getting myself a new amplifier. Atm I have a small and new one, a Vibro Champ XD. Moving from needing a bedroom practice amp, to having a lot more band rehearsals and most likely some minor gigging within a few months time, the Champ does no longer suit my needs.
Thrilled by the thought of having a piece of history, and of course the tone; I've been most eagerly looking at original ones from the 60s and 70s mainly at craigslist. To my great appreciation, in contradiction to their guitar counterparts, these vintage amplifiers are not labelled with insane prices. My question will sum up as:
Taking eventual service costs in consideration, will it be worth to buy as an example a (90%) original, used '69 Princeton or Twin Reverb instead of buying a modern era Vintage Reissue? So far, from what I've seen, the old ones barely exceeds the prices of the new ones, if anything more at all. But will I (almost) be able to play it like a new one, without placing new tubes etc.? I know it really sizes up to what condition the amp is in, but it still would be alot better to have a real old one, than a reissue...

Thanks in advance!

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Posted: Thu Jul 29, 2010 11:46 am
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It depends upon your priorities.

Which of these matter to you?

Tone
Quality
Reliability
Logistical supportability
Resale value

There's no "right" answer -- they're merely considerations that you need to take into account.

Currently it's a "buyer's market" for some vintage amps but if/when the economy ever recovers then those tasty pieces from the past will once again appreciate in price.

By the same token, the price for recent used gear continues to spiral downward, relative to their original MSRPs. I know people who can't give away a TRRI for $600.

HTH

Arjay

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Posted: Thu Jul 29, 2010 1:14 pm
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Reply appreciated, Retroverbial.

In one way or another all of those matter, don't they? Especially the top three, and not so much resale value to me. If I actually do get my hands on a real old timer, I will certainly want to hold on to it for a loooong time...

So you're actually saying that these days are the time to keep my eyes open for an old one, but if I should somehow decide to get a RI, it'd be somewhat wiser to hold for a little while?
Also, taking my complete lack of experience concerning these vintage beauties in consideration, what should be the things I am to look for when browsing old, used amps online and in pawn shops etc, compared to the prices? Tags, sound, tubes, datings?

Again, thanks. Glad I got to this forum.

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Posted: Thu Jul 29, 2010 1:52 pm
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Knowledgle = power, and you need to be aware of what you're looking at before you tender an offer or place a bid. There are a lot of books covering the vintage stuff which I'd recommend you avail yourself of or, failing that, find a friend who is familiar with these artifacts and consult with him.

As the prices for some vintage pieces slide down to intersect with the cost of a new re-issue, it's possible to acquire a nice vinty amp for virtual chump change. But again, you must be wary of any mods, repairs, replaced parts -- anything that appears wonky or out of character. Also, be prepared to pay for routine repairs and reconditioning (ie: tubes, filter caps, bias caps, an occasional noisy or scratchy pot, etc). Such is the nature of these "relics". But once done (and done competently) these old amps will deliver decades of dependable and consistent service.

Best of luck, HTH

Arjay

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"Here's why reliability is job one: A great sounding amp that breaks down goes from being a favorite piece of gear to a useless piece of crap in less time than it takes to read this sentence." -- BRUCE ZINKY


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Posted: Fri Jul 30, 2010 4:38 am
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I really appreciate your follow-up, Retroverbial.
So I will have to, and be delighted to, read up on the subject. Any books you recommend for starters, and main course? I've been looking at a few, but they're either covering the whole last 50 years, or have tons of others brands mixed in with them.
I guess I will have to do my self-teaching in abit of a hurry, as the prices will probably rise in not too long.

Thanks!

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Posted: Fri Jul 30, 2010 5:52 am
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I bought a book not too long ago that covers a lot of the basic stuff all the way through to selecting and servicing amps or what to know when a tech works on your amp.
The title is something about Tube Amps how to use them and get great sounds....it deals with the subject in easy to understand terms...starting with a simple explaination of the stages in an amp and how it makes the sounds it does.
I'll post the complete title this afternoon.


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Posted: Fri Jul 30, 2010 9:27 am
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Boffer wrote:
I've been looking at a few, but they're either covering the whole last 50 years, or have tons of others brands mixed in with them.


HA!

A lot of my knowlege stems from the fact that I lived those "last fifty years".

:mrgreen:

Regardless, the best stand-alone historical reference for Fender amps IMO is Tom Wheeler's "The Soul Of Tone". This tome covers cabinetry, cosmetics, EIA production codes, OEM speakers, pretty much the entire gamut of what a budding enthusiast would need to know to avoid getting burned by a sheister.

I saw a nice blackface '67 Princeton Reverb for $1400 on Ebay last night. Also a minty-and-vinty '66 small-box Bassman set for $1100......both of them true bargains, IMO.

They're out there......you just have to dig 'em up.

HTH

Arjay

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Posted: Fri Jul 30, 2010 11:21 am
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The book I was talking about is;
The Guitar Amp Handbook by Dave Hunter,should be available at http://www.backbeatbooks.com/feature/vi ... mId=331349

It is a really good book for new tube amp users or even old guys like me...I'm sure Arjay would know most of the things already,it really doesn't tell you much about how to repair an amp but how they work,looks at some schematics and explains components,signal paths,talks about speakers,tubes,etc.
I refer to it often...it's not the do/all,know/all book,but a good start to understanding tube amps.


Last edited by Rebelsoul on Fri Jul 30, 2010 11:29 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Posted: Fri Jul 30, 2010 11:24 am
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Hah! Had we all only been so lucky, Retro...
Yeah, think I'm ordering that Tom Wheeler book today, as a starter. Really looking forward to get into it!
Btw, when the grill cloth on a vintage amp has been recently changed, is that a great downside?

And thanks to you too, Rebelsoul. I will look to get that one aswell. Hopefully some day I'll make myself a real bargain, if not, I will atleast have gained tons of experience.

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Posted: Fri Jul 30, 2010 11:54 am
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Boffer wrote:
Btw, when the grill cloth on a vintage amp has been recently changed, is that a great downside?


The amp's price will usually be discounted accordingly.

If done correctly it's generally not a big deal. But I've seen some real hack jobs done by people who should know better.

As well, the repro cloths available today are not an exact match to the vintage textiles.

Even the stuff Fender itself uses on its re-issues is incorrect -- THE COLOR IS INCORRECT AND THE WEAVE PATTERN IS TOO LARGE!!!

(anybody in Corona listening???)

Arjay

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"Here's why reliability is job one: A great sounding amp that breaks down goes from being a favorite piece of gear to a useless piece of crap in less time than it takes to read this sentence." -- BRUCE ZINKY


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Posted: Fri Aug 20, 2010 9:42 am
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If I was looking at the best of all worlds, I would pick a silverface amp (especially twin), when they still had the same circuitry as their blackface predecessor. Put aside maybe $200-$300 to have it professionally overhauled, cap job, new tubes, ect, and you've got yourself an monster amp that will increase in value - but also sounds awesome.

Recently I just started playing again, and had my 66' BF Pro Reverb overhauled, and I really forgot how awesome of amp it really is. I have a nice Roland too, but the sensitivity and dynamics of tubes are really second to none...


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Posted: Fri Aug 20, 2010 9:54 am
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bwgray wrote:
If I was looking at the best of all worlds, I would pick a silverface amp (especially twin), when they still had the same circuitry as their blackface predecessor.


That's a very small production window.

The silverface drip-edge TR's began shipping from Fullerton in the summer of '67 (these are documentable AB763's). However, by June of the following year the AC568 circuit revision appeared and these are some of the worst-sounding Twin Reverbs ever made......real tone turds. And no, they are not easily modded back to the blackface configuration (it can be done though).

Arjay

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