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Post subject: Kind of interesting
Posted: Thu Jun 17, 2010 11:48 pm
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Hey guys, new poster. I've bought & sold & been inside Fender amps for over 35 years. Not so much lately, but my interest is re-awakening.

Here are two auctions on ebay that I thought were pretty interesting. One is for a '65 Deluxe and the other for a '65 Deluxe Reverb.

First, they both in killer shape and headed for big settlement prices! And the auctions have lots of high quality pix.

Ordinarily, I'd "guess" that there would be no differences between the power and output trannies and the choke. And, some of the more part-number informed might say that these are the same parts, just with different numbers. I found this pretty interesting. Well, sort of interesting. OK, boring.

Submitted for your consideration:

1965 Deluxe REVERB auction:
http://cgi.ebay.com/VINTAGE-1965-FENDER ... 3cae2e55bd

1965 Deluxe auction:
http://cgi.ebay.com/VINTAGE-1965-FENDER ... 3cae2e5254

Same person selling both amps...allegedly owned by John Nelson, who's a nice guy I knew 35 years ago.

The rear, black plates both say "FMI div of CBS Mus Insts", and we know that data point isn't probative on exact dating. But, note the two different ways the letters are laid out. One (more common, IMO) is along the very top of the rear panel plate, on the Deluxe. On the Deluxe Reverb, this info is on three separate lines, between the speaker jack and the vibrato footswitch jack. Don't know if I've seen it that way before more than once or twice.

The Deluxe is AB763 "OL"
The Deluxe Reverb is AB763 "OI"

Power trans:
Deluxe: 125P23D and 606 537
Reverb: 125P23C and 606 511

Output Trans:
Deluxe: 125A1A and 606 513
Reverb: 125A1A and 606 539

Choke:

Deluxe: 125C3A and 606 513
Reverb: 125C3A and 606 539

Reverb driver trans: 125A20B and 606 526

I think I just realized that the "606" numbers are date codes! :oops:

Anyway. A brief study in part numbers for your enjoyment.


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Posted: Fri Jun 18, 2010 12:11 am
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Also note the typo in the word "Colombia" (sic) on the rear panel of the Deluxe Reverb (it's correctly spelled C-O-L-U-M-B-I-A on the back of the non-verb Deluxe).

These are about the cleanest examples of their respective types that I've seen yet -- easily as nice as my '65 Princeton Reverb, which itself is a 9.5/10.

My first blackface Fender was a non-verb '65 Deluxe that I bought in 1966 for ninety bucks.

Who knew?!?!?

:mrgreen:

Arjay

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Posted: Fri Jun 18, 2010 10:13 am
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Yeah, clean city, eh?

I had a beautiful DR that I had to leave in NYC in 1981...it was about that clean. Sold it for zero!

Didn't notice that typo!

Pricing = ridiculous on these, I guess it's good to know that people still have money to spend on things.


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Posted: Fri Jun 18, 2010 10:22 am
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eleventeen wrote:
Pricing = ridiculous on these, I guess it's good to know that people still have money to spend on things.


Actually it's an effective method of ensuring that these priceless artifacts go to "good homes" since few dildos have the kind of money that they typically command.

Good Lord, I remember turning my nose up at blackface Princeton Reverbs back when they were pawnshop-priced for seventy-five bucks!

DUH!

Arjay

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"Here's why reliability is job one: A great sounding amp that breaks down goes from being a favorite piece of gear to a useless piece of crap in less time than it takes to read this sentence." -- BRUCE ZINKY


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Posted: Fri Jun 18, 2010 11:34 am
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I think the same way,"going to a good home".
Also I wish I had picked up some of the Princeton reverbs back then...it's amazing how they're going for around $2500!...they were considered too small back then.


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Posted: Fri Jun 18, 2010 12:13 pm
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Well, in that vein, in my high school years '67-71 you could have named a number and I could have bought you that number of used Strats for under $200 each.


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Posted: Fri Jun 18, 2010 6:38 pm
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Indeed! I can remember trading a '66 Bassman head (when Bassmans were worth $150) straight across for a nice slab-board '63 back in '75.

Arjay

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"Here's why reliability is job one: A great sounding amp that breaks down goes from being a favorite piece of gear to a useless piece of crap in less time than it takes to read this sentence." -- BRUCE ZINKY


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Posted: Mon Jun 21, 2010 4:57 am
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I just wish I would have bought those Strats that I passed on back then,but who knew.
At some point in time they went from less than $300 to thousands...when I first saw one going for around $1500 I couldn't believe it...for years the blackface amps were reasonable,now they're taking off in prices like the tweeds.
Remember when nobody wanted the tweeds?


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Posted: Mon Jun 21, 2010 6:51 am
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Quite so, I myself never especially liked the tweeds, but that's because I'm not a rock player & I always wanted reverb. Most of the used tweeds I saw when I was buying & selling instruments more actively were basket cases, noisy, and in rough condition. I realized back in the 70's that the older Strats would be become prized items over the years; and I could see that the build quality of the guitars went seriously downhill in the 70's but I never suspected amps would go nuts.

[I will say, though, that the current build quality is really quite good. I have a '93 Strat Plus I bot "new-used" whose Lace pickups sound like crap, but as a guitar, as a mechanical item that's supposed to have even feel up and down the neck and stays in tune and "sings" as a unit, it simply devastates my '64 Strat which is a very nice one. And I am the last guy to buy a brand new guitar!]

At the present time, however, you add up the raw parts costs of the parts in (just as an easy example) a brand new Deluxe Reverb and you come up with a considerable dollar number before even soldering them together.

As a WAG;

Cabinet, tolexed and grill clothed w/back panels w/handle & glides $150.
(stock) Spkr: $60
Tube set: $60
Chassis sheet metal, punched, $100
All electronic parts; pots, signal caps, electrolytics, resistors, line cord, switches, knobs, tube sockets, circuit board, 6 x 1/4" jacks $200
Transformers $100
Reverb tank in pouch $60
Assembly labor: $100. @ $10/hour
Incoming freight: $40. AND/OR
Sales tax on whatever you have to buy locally: ??
Total: $870.

So when a brand new DR is $899 with a warrantee from Musicians Friend or whatever, it amounts to something like what it would cost to buy and solder and screw together all the parts! Unless you have this stuff lying around (like I used to) you have to go buy every single stupid resistor and strain relief and screw and grommet and not one single one of these parts is 25 cents any more, like 80% of them used to be! Go add up 10 pots (don't forget Senor Bias!) and 9 tube sockets and the 5 electrolytics if you don't believe me. Oh, and make sure those pots have the right shaft lengths. I'm not talking about paying full flaming retail for these parts, either, just a modest discount which is all you are going to get if you're just building 1-2-3 units. Example: pots = $3 each, not $7 each.

Not to mention the logistical effort, unless you're already in the business of procuring these things, of getting all this stuff. I've added the shipping costs of getting it all to you and the sales tax on whatever you have to buy in-state. These frictions are inescapable!

You can go out and buy any number of clean used $600-$650 '65 Deluxe Reverb reissues but you can't build one for that. :shock:


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Posted: Mon Jun 21, 2010 8:05 am
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I think the DR reissues,especially the good used ones,are a bargain these days,and when comparing the sound to my old ones it comes close...with some great tubes,it sure is worth the price compared to what the BF and SF models are going for now,I wouldn't feel bad to own one.
I talked to an amp tech that does a couple of mods inside the chassis that even adds to the sound quality,I forgot what he said he did,but tried one out in a store and it was really a tone machine.


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Posted: Mon Jun 21, 2010 8:55 am
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Agreed on the DRRI's. They are PC-board based, not P2P wired. It is really not possible to hand wire anything mass-produced on any sort of economic basis in the 21st century, fortunately or unfortunately.

Here is the overly-long story of a guy who took a DRRI and yanked (actually, his tech did) the PC board, replaced the cheesy pots with CTS and the jacks with Switchcraft and installed a Hoffman board to get the build quality to that of an earlier one; while doing some other mods for tonal shaping per his liking. He also changed to Mercury transformers. In the end, what he got from (meaning ALL he got from) his original (bot clean, used) DRRI was the cabinet, chassis sheet metal, speaker, reverb can, a few switches, the 9-pin tubes themselves, and the 9-pin tube sockets. By my reckoning (prior post) that's still about $450 worth of "stuff" and I suppose one could ebay the old iron for about $100.

http://aga.rru.com/Events/MM-DRRI-rebuild/

A different aspect of the rebuild is changing out some 1/4 watt resistors for 1 watters and changing out the 1-watt screen resistors for 5 watters. In other words, not changing any parts values, just upgrading wattages so stuff doesn't overheat and fry. As 6V6 death typically leads to screen resistor death, this is a fine idea. I would suspect that one could do this kind of resistor upgrade without junking the entire internals of the amp; but sometimes lifting up and flipping over a single-sided PC board to unsolder a few misc resistors can be a massive PITA because wires lead away from the board from all sides and "tie-down" the board like the Lilliputians tied down Gulliver. Still, you could clip the light parts and solder to their stubbed leads. Ugly, but functional.

My read of of this saga; unless "Mikey" works pretty danged cheap, this effort surely cost a solid grand, and even subtracting the cost of the Mercury iron, had to cost close to a grand. (Figuring on say $175 for Mercury) So, all said and done, assuming he got his used DRRI for $500, he's into this amp for $1650-1800, easy.

Sure isn't quite the same as buying a used Deluxe Reverb for $350, is it?


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Posted: Mon Jun 21, 2010 9:54 am
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Rebelsoul wrote:
...for years the blackface amps were reasonable,now they're taking off in prices like the tweeds.


Which is why I grab any bargain-priced blackfaces I can find (like my '65 Princeton Reverb for $625). I'll soon be refurbishing a '67 Showman head that I picked up for three hundred bucks.

Arjay

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"Here's why reliability is job one: A great sounding amp that breaks down goes from being a favorite piece of gear to a useless piece of crap in less time than it takes to read this sentence." -- BRUCE ZINKY


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Posted: Mon Jun 21, 2010 10:35 am
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I agree about snatching up any BF I think is priced within reason.The sleepers imho are the drip edge SF amps,I have a late '67 DR that is a SF drip edge and the insides are identical to my BF,I think they were until maybe late '68 or so when CBS started messing with things.
Most people think SF= crap...not always so.
I wouldn't put all that much into a DR reissue like in the previous story,it would more than likely sound great but there's still some vintage amps out there to put money into like Retro said.


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Posted: Mon Jun 21, 2010 10:44 am
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The local high school has a cherry, cherry SF Vibrolux Reverb and I'm thinking about buying them 2 brand new $300-$350 amps and swapping them for it. Don't know if they would go for it and it wouldn't exactly be "stealing" it, but it would be a happy deal all around.

A $350 Showman head is a great deal now and 5 years ago!


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Posted: Mon Jun 21, 2010 10:49 am
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You're relatively safe with the SF drip-edge models up through around mid-68, which was when the first "diddling" occured with the newly-introduced Dual Showman Reverb ("AB568") in late May, followed by the Bandmaster Reverb ("AC768") in August. The respective combos from which these piggybacks were derived (Twin Reverb, Super Rever) also fell victim to this corruption at the same time. As for the Deluxe Reverb, those remained relatively unscathed until early '70 when FMI ditched the traditional lock-jointed pine cabinets with screw-in baffle for the flimsier rabbet-joined boxes with velcro grill frame (the chassis was still unmolested at that point though). However, repro cabinets are much easier (for me) to build than back-dating a circuit revision to AB763, AB165, or AA964 specs.

Arjay

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"Here's why reliability is job one: A great sounding amp that breaks down goes from being a favorite piece of gear to a useless piece of crap in less time than it takes to read this sentence." -- BRUCE ZINKY


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