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Post subject: Vintage versus New Tube Amp?
Posted: Sun Mar 22, 2009 1:02 pm
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Okay, go ahead and laugh at the newbie, but I have a very naive question. I'm looking for a low-watt tube amp to play at home and with friends, not at gigs.

I've seen some vintage (64-68) Champs for sale in local shops and on Craig's list. They're in the $500-600 range for the most part.

As an alternative, there is a new Carr Amp out for about $1k with 3 watts and a surprising amount of volume. A real quality amp that should last for years with few problems.

Still, I'd love to have a Fender vintage amp and spend less money, but I'm concerned that I will experience a lot of problems, maintenance, and repair issues if I buy a vintage amp.

I assume those repairs can be expensive and probably hard to know what you're getting into when you buy something really old. The ones I'm looking at are all original (except tubes) and pretty clean (given their age) inside and out.

What recommendations do you veterans have for me?


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Posted: Sun Mar 22, 2009 2:05 pm
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A vintage Champ is a great little amp to get your hands on. I say go vintage, but then that's all I have. Welcome to the forum William, enjoy your stay here. 8) Mike

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Posted: Sun Mar 22, 2009 2:07 pm
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You'll want to have a three prong cord put on and at most a cap job. Should'nt cost more than 135.00-150.00. Then you have a piece of Fender history that will only go up in value as well as bring you years of enjoyment. 8) Mike

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Posted: Sun Mar 22, 2009 5:15 pm
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Champs are pretty loud for 6 watts. I have a 74. Sometimes I'll run it through a 2x10 cab.


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Post subject: Thanks for the input
Posted: Mon Mar 23, 2009 10:36 pm
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OK. Vintage it is.

What's a cap job?

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Posted: Tue Mar 24, 2009 8:57 am
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I have a Fender Tweed Champ clone, 5F1. Now, it's vintage specs but with new components. Is that considered vintage?


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Post subject: Clones and Reissues are Not Vintage
Posted: Tue Mar 24, 2009 10:09 am
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New amps and guitars, even if made to original vintage specs, are not "vintage" per se. In some cases they may perform better than their vintage counterparts, but they don't have the same value because they are new, not old.

One could argue that the high price of vintage equipment is often out of proportion to its intrinsic value, i.e., it's expensive because it's rare and desired by many people as a collectable.

As wonderful as a vintage 54 tele may be, for instance, there is no way this guitar is worth the $50+ thousand it would cost to buy one. No guitar is really worth that kind of money in my opinion because there are custom luthiers making extraordinary instruments at a fraction of that price.

True, the well-aged wood of a 50 year-old guitar may have some amazing sonic qualities that a new instrument, regardless of quality, cannot replicate. But is it 50 times better? I don't think so.

And although I'm as smitten with historic guitars and amps as the next gear head, I know that the quality of music comes 90% from the player. A great player will sound great on mediocre equipment and a weak player will sound weak on the best equipment, don't you think?

I originally raised the vintage versus new question because in the case Fender champs, the initial cost outlay for a vintage amp is very reasonable, less than most quality new tube amps, in fact. My concern was whether the hidden cost of maintaining and repairing a vintage amp might make it a poor choice.

I'd love to have an old amp for the esoteric vibe and for sentimental reasons as I was just getting started when these "old" amps were new---that dates me, I guess! But I don't want an amp that's always breaking down and in the shop costing me an arm and a leg.

Still debating. Anyone out there have first-hand experience they can share?

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Posted: Tue Mar 24, 2009 11:18 am
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Having a vintage amp is a bit like having a vintage car. For the latter, you better learn mechanic.

Although learning to work on amps is a cool trade, it is inevitable with a vintage amp.


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Posted: Tue Mar 24, 2009 1:22 pm
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My Champ is 34 years old and is fine. You could always build a kit. The Champ circuit is an easy build.


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Posted: Tue Mar 24, 2009 1:25 pm
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You also find them already built sometimes on eBay, got mine for $300.


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Post subject: Re: Clones and Reissues are Not Vintage
Posted: Tue Mar 24, 2009 11:51 pm
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williamegray wrote:
I'd love to have an old amp for the esoteric vibe and for sentimental reasons.....


Exactly why I bought one. Plus, it sounds fantastic.

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Post subject: vintage
Posted: Wed Mar 25, 2009 9:03 pm
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vintage is the way to go if you have the money, i would suggest patience,
deals come and go, when i got my princeton it was in pretty rough shape, it still sounded great thats what i bought it for ,tone,i had a 3prong plugg and a capacitor job done , it also needed tubes, the whole job cost $170.00
i also had it re tolexed and replaced the grill cloth,( it was really bad)
i had the work done by VVT amps, im not a purist i dont give a $@!& about intrinsic value, i now have a one of a kind 1962 princeton, as far as im concerned its priceless.
The tone is inspiring, 90% is me but the 47 year old princeton is definately holding up its end.
if i knew how to upload i would show it off,
good luck ,if you go vintage you wont regrett it,i couldnt say the same about a new one.


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Post subject: Re: Clones and Reissues are Not Vintage
Posted: Thu Apr 02, 2009 6:22 pm
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williamegray wrote:
New amps and guitars, even if made to original vintage specs, are not "vintage" per se. In some cases they may perform better than their vintage counterparts, but they don't have the same value because they are new, not old.

One could argue that the high price of vintage equipment is often out of proportion to its intrinsic value, i.e., it's expensive because it's rare and desired by many people as a collectable.

As wonderful as a vintage 54 tele may be, for instance, there is no way this guitar is worth the $50+ thousand it would cost to buy one. No guitar is really worth that kind of money in my opinion because there are custom luthiers making extraordinary instruments at a fraction of that price.

True, the well-aged wood of a 50 year-old guitar may have some amazing sonic qualities that a new instrument, regardless of quality, cannot replicate. But is it 50 times better? I don't think so.

And although I'm as smitten with historic guitars and amps as the next gear head, I know that the quality of music comes 90% from the player. A great player will sound great on mediocre equipment and a weak player will sound weak on the best equipment, don't you think?

I originally raised the vintage versus new question because in the case Fender champs, the initial cost outlay for a vintage amp is very reasonable, less than most quality new tube amps, in fact. My concern was whether the hidden cost of maintaining and repairing a vintage amp might make it a poor choice.

I'd love to have an old amp for the esoteric vibe and for sentimental reasons as I was just getting started when these "old" amps were new---that dates me, I guess! But I don't want an amp that's always breaking down and in the shop costing me an arm and a leg.

Still debating. Anyone out there have first-hand experience they can share?


I think that William hit most of it here on the head. Like guitars, I think there are two ways of looking at this, from the view point of a musician and the view point of a collector. -If- you are a collector and your primary concern with something like a Fender champ is as a historical piece which you are going to lock in a glass cabinet somewhere, by all means go for the vintage. Remember though that like a vintage guitar, anything you may do to it (including playing thru it) will likely decrease the value of the amp. If on the other hand you are like me and your a guitar player then I'd go for new myself. Something like the Fender Blues Jr for example is an -excellent- amp. They sound great, it'll give you many years of great and trouble free service and they're the loudest 15 watts I've ever heard!

From the view point of a guitar player, the difference between a vintage/collectors amp and a new amp of similar design really isn't all that significant. The biggest difference really is the speakers. There was a review a number of years ago when the '65 Twin reissues first came out where a side by side comparison was done between a '65 RI and an original 1965 Twin (I think the article was in Guitar Player but don't quote me on that). The article had stated that the RI, while built to the original specs, did use a few "modern conveniences"...things like printed circuit boards and such that Leo Fender himself probably would have used back in the day had he of had the technology available. The first comment was the side by side, the two amps sounded completely different. The RI sounded great but was much "tighter" and punchier with a sound more suited for country, where as the original had the more laid back sound that so many blues players and classic rock artists crave. Then they swapped speakers...suddenly the RI had that mellow laid back tone and the original sounded tight and punchy.

Give or take things like capacitors/tolerances and such, Fender tube amp design hasn't really changed all that much over the last 40 years. There may be some slight difference in the quality of the components of the CBS years vs. the pre-CBS, but the difference is fairly marginal. Beyond that, the CBS era is a thing of the past so most new amps are of a pretty good build quality all the way around (much tighter quality control these days). Yes, the heat from a tube amp will effect that parts over time, but again this is usually more of a tolerance issue at least in regards to how the amp sounds. In that regard, you'll usually hear more of a difference simply from replacing a set of tubes than you would from replacing something like a capacitor or resister. Speakers however are a different subject. Being an "electro-mechanical" device, they are subject to a bit of wear from normal usage....those cones will wear from the physical movement, the paper deteriorates, electrical characteristics will change, etc.. In other words, all other things being equal, a brand new speaker is NOT going to sound the same as a speaker of the exact same design that has been "broken in" for a few years or so.

I also have to agree with William's comment about 90% of the sound coming from the player and not the guitar or amp. As I've said a great many times now, Eric Clapton would still sound like Eric Clapton regardless of what equipment he was using. He sounds like Eric Clapton because he -is- Eric Clapton. A lot of people get so hung up on the equipment that they loose track of the important thing...the playing. This is just a personal and highly subjective opinion on my part but I think for a lot of people that it's easier to blame "bad tone" on their guitar or amp than it is for them to simply blame themselves. I'm not saying this is true of everyone but...I've met a lot of guys who will complain about their sound/tone. "Man...I just can't get the sound I want out of this amp" and at least 8 out of 10 times it's not the gear, it's the person using it. Being a photographer, I would easily compare this with cameras. A person can go out and buy the most expensive camera and lenses out there but if they don't know what they are doing, their pictures are still going to suck. A real pro on the other hand can take a very modest point and shoot and produce incredibly lovely images with it simply because they -know- what they are doing. Guitars and amps are the same way...they are tools and they are only going to be as good as the person using them. Of course, it does always give a person an excuse to go out and buy new or used and/or vintage piece of equipment :D.

With that I would reiterate that if you are a collector looking for a nice piece of history to put in your display cabinet, go with the vintage but otherwise I'd buy new (or reasonably used at least). If you really find you need a more "vintage tone" then find yourself an old Jenson speaker and slap that sucker in the amp (and save the original for posterity). You'll have a much nicer and more reliable amp and you won't have to worry about the intrinsic value of a collectors item.

Just my opinion as always,
Jim


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Post subject:
Posted: Thu Apr 02, 2009 8:50 pm
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Before you purchase any new amp find as many reviews as possible,and play them in your local shop, i have read too many reviews where the buyer has had to send the amp in for repairs in a very short time after the purchase.
that will wear off the excitement quick.
this is an old post and you probably have made up your mind and bought an amp,either way i hope you got a great one.


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Post subject:
Posted: Wed Apr 08, 2009 7:41 am
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I picked up a mid 70's Fender Quad for a song ($400).
SWEEEET amp. Perfect amp if you want to leave it in one spot and not gig with it. (very heavy) Solid Solid Solid amp. The older amps were hand wired and seem to be very reliable for some reason. Had my local elec. shop clean and check all of the electronics / tubes sockets and clean the pots. Only $50 to do that. + Spent about $150 on new tubes (didn't need to - but I wanted better grade tubes / JJ Tesla power and Mullard pre's). You'll end up with a heck of an amp that will last you a life time. Also - the re-sale on these (once they have been cleaned up) is sweet!

Hope this helps

Here's a pic of mine


Ben

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