It is currently Mon Mar 16, 2020 10:53 am

All times are UTC - 7 hours



Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 284 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7 ... 19  Next
Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7 ... 19  Next
Author Message
Post subject: Re: Trying to buy my 1st Vintage Amp
Posted: Sat Aug 06, 2016 2:06 pm
Offline
Professional Musician
Professional Musician

Joined: Tue Nov 27, 2012 6:56 am
Posts: 1677
Location: Coastal Bend, Tx.
Of course not Arjay, I'm a wirgen... :lol: Now that I have the chassis out, it is very fine @ 6.2ish... :wink:
Cant say as much for the O/T, primary 303.5ohm speaker output .7 :lol: I think I'm short a wire on each side, I only have 3?
Image
Image


Last edited by sfceric64 on Mon Jul 10, 2017 10:19 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Top
Profile
Fender Play Winter Sale 2020
Post subject: Re: Trying to buy my 1st Vintage Amp
Posted: Sat Aug 06, 2016 4:50 pm
Offline
Rock Star
Rock Star
User avatar

Joined: Sat Jul 03, 2010 2:18 pm
Posts: 6544
Wires seem fine. Brown-red-blue = primary (red = center tap). Black and green = secondary. Primary DCR = 300-450 ohms (blue to brown). Secondary should read 0.5-1 ohm Black to green.

239 = MC&T (Merit Coil & Transformers).

601 = 1956 or 46, 1st week. Maybe, a replacement? The amp is 1953?

Be sure to put wiring back to same positions. To maintain correct polarity, if you have global feedback.

Awesome TRIAD power tranny!

Congrats! :)


Last edited by BMW2002Ti on Sat Aug 06, 2016 5:39 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Top
Profile
Post subject: Re: Trying to buy my 1st Vintage Amp
Posted: Sat Aug 06, 2016 5:27 pm
Offline
Rock Icon
Rock Icon
User avatar

Joined: Wed Mar 31, 2010 12:48 am
Posts: 26416
Location: Tombstone Territory
BMW2002Ti wrote:
Be sure to put wiring back to same positions. To maintain correct polarity, if you have global feedback.


+1!

Arjay

_________________
"Here's why reliability is job one: A great sounding amp that breaks down goes from being a favorite piece of gear to a useless piece of crap in less time than it takes to read this sentence." -- BRUCE ZINKY


Top
Profile
Post subject: Re: Trying to buy my 1st Vintage Amp
Posted: Sat Aug 06, 2016 5:50 pm
Offline
Professional Musician
Professional Musician

Joined: Tue Nov 27, 2012 6:56 am
Posts: 1677
Location: Coastal Bend, Tx.
Quote:
Wires seem fine. Brown-red-blue = primary (red = center tap). Black and green = secondary. Primary DCR = 300-450 ohms (blue to brown). Secondary should read 0.5-1 ohm Black to green.

239 = MC&T (Merit Coil & Transformers).

601 = 1960, 1st week.

Be sure to put wiring back to same positions

Well thanks as usual for sharing, I've been scouring the net trying to find info on the transformer model. I had been looking for something (dtd 1956-Jan). I will re-look now for the model from 1960. After looking back at the schematics, I realized I had enough wires but was concerned that a single green wire is cut very short on the secondary side, grn-cut short-blk is this normal? As far a putting the wires back where they came from, maybe not. I did get good numbers as you pointed out so I'm feeling better about the O/T.
I'm gonna use the Weber schematic minus the stand-by switch as a guide to wire the O/T. He shows red to P8 of V5 and blue/brown to P3 of V3/V4 respectively. His blk-grn are wired to a speaker jack instead of directly to the speaker. Hopefully once I get things sorted and replaced every thing fires up, I'm going to sub my old C12K for testing purposes or was thinking I need to read up on how to use the attenuator as a speaker sub.

I don't think this amp has seen power since the last cap job. Not a meter blip on any of the electolytics.

Quote:
601 = 1956 or 46, 1st week. Maybe, a replacement? The amp is 1953?

Dunno for sure my guess is late1950- early1951, its earlier than mid year 1951(based on the cabinet) serial# is lowest I've seen in search pics. I think the speaker is 1949 gold foil label was changed in 57/58 to blue style. Triad doesn't have a visible marking other than 6452(serial # maybe) The auction add said the O/T was changed, not much help there.
The small caps are Sangamo yellow(did some side work research at the Lincoln Library and left a few questions w/ the editor and my sis lives in Springfield), no visible dates. No dates on the tube chart until 1953. No circuit date either. The volume pots are 500K haven't looked at the EIA codes yet, on/off tone pot is 1Meg.


Top
Profile
Post subject: Re: Trying to buy my 1st Vintage Amp
Posted: Sat Aug 06, 2016 6:19 pm
Offline
Rock Star
Rock Star
User avatar

Joined: Sat Jul 03, 2010 2:18 pm
Posts: 6544
Photos of those caps and the circuit would be very nice! :D
Most tweed era amps I've seen, used Astron (yellow or red) caps.

If you wire that secondary line from the output tranny wrong, there will be NO question about it. You'll prolly get the worst screeching you've ever heard, if you have feedback on that amp.

I believe the schematic-layout has colors of wires. At least, for the 5C3?

http://bmamps.com/Schematics/fender/del ... _schem.pdf

Good luck!


Top
Profile
Post subject: Re: Trying to buy my 1st Vintage Amp
Posted: Sat Aug 06, 2016 6:48 pm
Offline
Professional Musician
Professional Musician

Joined: Tue Nov 27, 2012 6:56 am
Posts: 1677
Location: Coastal Bend, Tx.
Sore neck from trying to read the tone pot data: my best guess w/o de-solder 1A250V, 3A125V, S.O.C.O. UNK-IND Lab then more UNK- insp.. The Vol pots are both: (MIJ)13-19B 500meg 724
Image


Last edited by sfceric64 on Mon Jul 10, 2017 10:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Top
Profile
Post subject: Re: Trying to buy my 1st Vintage Amp
Posted: Sat Aug 06, 2016 7:56 pm
Offline
Professional Musician
Professional Musician

Joined: Tue Nov 27, 2012 6:56 am
Posts: 1677
Location: Coastal Bend, Tx.
Quote:
I believe the schematic-layout has colors of wires. At least, for the 5C3?

http://bmamps.com/Schematics/fender/del ... _schem.pdf
The newest version of The Tube Amp Book has the 5B3 layout on the CD, it is legible when zoomed. Don't know why I said Weber's schematic of the 5C3.

The only other data points I see on the amp are from the Lamp holder, manufacturer name: Drake, Chicago and the patent# 2223515. Then there is penciled 39 in a circle on all the cabinet pieces.

From what I can tell based on the Tube Amp Book is,
the input resistors are 75k 1/2w instead of 50k 1/2w
The CC resistor from V2-P3 is 22k 1w instead of 250k 2w (all the other resistors are 2w or higher, except input)
The black beauty is in the wrong place, should be attached to the fuse to grnd sorta as in a modern Y device
All the V sockets are slightly loose to the chassis
Replace all the power caps, went w/ Vishay-Sprague to save money for better tone caps if needed
Change the dropping resistors from CC 10k 2w to Metal Oxide 10k 3w
Replace if necessary paper/oil caps across V2 P2/4 and Tone pot to grnd w/ Silver Mica (I don't have a I/C meter)
Replace paper/oil at Fuse to grnd W/ Y type safety cap

Seems like a lot but it is more of a waiting for delivery than anything. I haven't pulled the trigger on tone caps just yet, but the majority of everything needed has been ordered from Allied and I will put a little order in to Just Radio also, after all the time I spent reading there.

And one more newby question, how do you separate the fuse from the cap? seems like its got a ball swivel connection built into the cap. don't want to break it if I don't have to!!


Last edited by sfceric64 on Sun Aug 07, 2016 8:46 am, edited 1 time in total.

Top
Profile
Post subject: Re: Trying to buy my 1st Vintage Amp
Posted: Sun Aug 07, 2016 2:54 am
Offline
Rock Star
Rock Star
User avatar

Joined: Sat Jul 03, 2010 2:18 pm
Posts: 6544
I'd eliminate the "death cap" and put in a three-wire AC line. Follow this diagram.

Image


Top
Profile
Post subject: Re: Trying to buy my 1st Vintage Amp
Posted: Sun Aug 07, 2016 8:51 am
Offline
Professional Musician
Professional Musician

Joined: Tue Nov 27, 2012 6:56 am
Posts: 1677
Location: Coastal Bend, Tx.
The previous owner changed to a three prong. Changed the speaker and the O/T.


Last edited by sfceric64 on Sun Aug 07, 2016 10:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Top
Profile
Post subject: Re: Trying to buy my 1st Vintage Amp
Posted: Sun Aug 07, 2016 10:09 pm
Offline
Professional Musician
Professional Musician

Joined: Tue Nov 27, 2012 6:56 am
Posts: 1677
Location: Coastal Bend, Tx.
Well I spent most of the day tracking down the Merit O/T Specs for model A4101. This pic of the spec sheet is the best I could come up with from a 1966 catalog, not really sure how to interpret it. Seems your date(1960-Jan) was correct because I also looked at a 51/52 catalog and the A4101 wasn't listed. Those were the only catalogs I could find on the web.
I also got all the resistors measured and created an excel worksheet for the all the data.
Image


Last edited by sfceric64 on Mon Jul 10, 2017 10:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Top
Profile
Post subject: Re: Trying to buy my 1st Vintage Amp
Posted: Sun Aug 07, 2016 10:38 pm
Offline
Rock Star
Rock Star
User avatar

Joined: Sat Jul 03, 2010 2:18 pm
Posts: 6544
He should have removed the "black beauty, death cap." The 0.1md/600VDC black cap with red lettering going from back of volume control [plus on-off switch] to ground. The black wire of the power cord should be going to the fuse holder. White power line (or neutral) to transformer.

As for the trannies... remember, AC impedance is different than DC resistance. AC impedance is measured with, usually, a 1kHz pure sine wave input signal for output trannies. AC impedance usually is higher than static DC measured resistance (no signal, no power) --- across the same windings.


Top
Profile
Post subject: Re: Trying to buy my 1st Vintage Amp
Posted: Mon Aug 08, 2016 12:48 am
Offline
Professional Musician
Professional Musician

Joined: Tue Nov 27, 2012 6:56 am
Posts: 1677
Location: Coastal Bend, Tx.
Quote:
He should have removed the "black beauty, death cap." The 0.1md/600VDC black cap with red lettering going from back of volume control [plus on-off switch] to ground.
Yes he probably should have, but he was probably not using the correct schematic or thought it would be better to connect to the on/off switch instead of the fuse & chassis ground. I don't think its a significant problem w/ the 3-way plug, but will check it out once I get to putting electrons in motion.
Quote:
The black wire of the power cord should be going to the fuse holder. White power line (or neutral) to transformer.
The schematic has black to the fuse, green to ground and black/white to on/off switch.
Quote:
As for the trannies... remember, AC impedance is different than DC resistance. AC impedance is measured with, usually, a 1kHz pure sine wave input signal for output trannies. AC impedance usually is higher than static DC measured resistance (no signal, no power) --- across the same windings.
Yes I understand after watching all the Uncle Doug transformer vids, he does a great job presenting the information.
That's why I'm still not ready to put that tranny back into the amp w/o having the equipment to test the winding ratio's to get the actual output. I did do all the algebra based on the DCR I took just to see what the numbers would be, nothing close to what it should be for PP 6v6's. Then I re-did the numbers w/ an extra 1.25x and they were still not optimal for 6v6s.
The spec sheet pic doesn't really give any relevant information other than wattage and tube mA values.
The primary 8000ohms impedance ct ( I presume its center tap) and the secondary 3-4/6-8 is what in layman's terms?

Still the other question I have is the cut wire on the secondary side, I got my super lighted spectacles out of the closet last night and it is actually green w/ black stripe(is this the O/T ground maybe)? I realize the pic in my earlier link showed a yellow pvc covered wire, but it wasn't connected to anything loose in the cabinet.

Also, should I just replace the wires on the O/T to reduce splices to 1, the primary has 3 splices and the secondary has 2?

While I don't mind blowing a C12K; I still don't feel warm or fuzzy about the O/T and or what an impedance mis-match could do to any other components. I suppose if its a 4ohm output w/ an 8ohm speaker it will in general just be under powered. But what will the mismatch do to the rest of the circuit in terms of me testing voltages and caps, etc.?

Most of the resistors were right at or more than 20% off stated values, should they all be replaced?

My ears have been smoking lately with all the internet information overload & sales adds. I'm not the sponge I used to be, more the skeptic.

Thanks again for trying to help.


Last edited by sfceric64 on Mon Jul 10, 2017 10:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Top
Profile
Post subject: Re: Trying to buy my 1st Vintage Amp
Posted: Mon Aug 08, 2016 7:06 pm
Offline
Rock Star
Rock Star
User avatar

Joined: Sat Jul 03, 2010 2:18 pm
Posts: 6544
Remove the death cap. If the three-prong outlet wiring is done correctly, you do not need this cap. There should be no GROUND switch in the TV Front Deluxe. So, I'm not sure what the Black Beauty cap is supposed to do.

White (neutral) line is going to switch, then to power transformer. That is correct. Black (hot) to fuse is proper.

Your output tranny (OPT) is fine. The static DC resistance readings are within parameters for that era OPT. As for that extra, unconnected wire --- I have a feeling it maybe a 16-ohm tap. Not used in your amp. One secondary line is grounded to the chassis. Usually, right at the speaker jack.

You can do a continuity test between the extra line and the other secondary lines. My bet is you will get slightly higher DC resistance reading, than across the Black and Green lines.

Is that your amp's OPT? Attached to one speaker? The question posted on the photo is talking about a wire from the power tranny, not the output tranny. (I believe)???


Top
Profile
Post subject: Re: Trying to buy my 1st Vintage Amp
Posted: Mon Aug 08, 2016 11:53 pm
Offline
Professional Musician
Professional Musician

Joined: Tue Nov 27, 2012 6:56 am
Posts: 1677
Location: Coastal Bend, Tx.
BMW2002Ti wrote:
Remove the death cap. If the three-prong outlet wiring is done correctly, you do not need this cap. There should be no GROUND switch in the TV Front Deluxe. So, I'm not sure what the Black Beauty cap is supposed to do.Check, done.

White (neutral) line is going to switch, then to power transformer. That is correct. Black (hot) to fuse is proper.Check, done.

Your output tranny (OPT) is fine. The static DC resistance readings are within parameters for that era OPT. As for that extra, unconnected wire --- I have a feeling it maybe a 16-ohm tap. Not used in your amp. One secondary line is grounded to the chassis. Usually, right at the speaker jack.the unconnected wire mentioned was just layin in the cabinet of my amp, yellow solid core 6". It might have been connected at some point to the short grn/blk cut wire I mentioned. There is a really poor bit of solder on the O/T frame w/ nothing connected to it.

You can do a continuity test between the extra line and the other secondary lines. My bet is you will get slightly higher DC resistance reading, than across the Black and Green lines.Check, done. .5DCR, closer to the core than the secondary blk-grn that were connected to the speaker, that I de-soldered for disassembly. I also found a way to supply power to the O/T using a 12V wall wart, it is as you have been saying and now I've been able to learn the how to and say thanks[color=#008000]Good to Go for PP6v6 and an 8ohm driver [/color]

Is that your amp's OPT? Attached to one speaker? The question posted on the photo is talking about a wire from the power tranny, not the output tranny. (I believe)???
No, mine doesn't have that wire :roll: It is from an old reverb for sale posting that had great pictures. The power tranny in the pic is still connected to the chassis and its wires are connected to what they go to. [color=#000000]So I'm gonna assume it is a chassis ground wire from the secondary CT and run w/ the rest of the O/T's primary connection wires. It is very close to the serial # of mine and I really like the tube socket nuts painted red, though. [/color]

As far as dating goes, I'm gonna say mine was made in the month of January 1951. Considering all that I've dug around probably the third week even. It wasn't that complicated, prior year shipping (#-1534) divided by the working days of the 1951(245-260 considering work ethic @Fender) to determine that (6) Deluxe models were made each day. In 1951 the serial #'s started at 1900. Considering at the end of 1950 the deluxe was out selling all other (5 models) by 2:1. They probably came close to doubling again in 1951, but no other years production/shipping numbers have been released that I'm aware of. And that's considering model and circuit changes from the start of production into the tweed era, from the model 26.

Taken from the Soul of Tone, The Guitar Amp Handbook and Fender Amps the 1st 50 Years.

Of course if you take it all w/ a grain of SALT- dating aint easy pre 53, don't forget to follow w/ a shot of Tequila.


Top
Profile
Post subject: Re: Trying to buy my 1st Vintage Amp
Posted: Tue Aug 09, 2016 12:15 am
Offline
Rock Star
Rock Star
User avatar

Joined: Sat Jul 03, 2010 2:18 pm
Posts: 6544
Sounds like you are good to go. Be sure to measure plate voltage on the 6V6GT tubes and check idle bias.

FWIW... if you ever want to dab paint onto a nut-&-bolt use good nail polish. Lasts a long time and looks, for all intents, OEM. :lol:

https://www.amazon.com/Sally-Hansen-Nai ... Q1VXY26AR8


Top
Profile
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 284 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7 ... 19  Next
Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7 ... 19  Next

All times are UTC - 7 hours

Fender Play Winter Sale 2020

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to: