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Post subject: Trying to buy my 1st Vintage Amp
Posted: Mon Jul 25, 2016 8:37 pm
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Location: Coastal Bend, Tx.
I submitted my offer and will find out Tuesday if it has been accepted on an early model Deluxe.
As always, I appreciate the experts that frequent these forums and offer their experienced opinions.
I will post more information and pictures as soon as I find out if its mine.


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Post subject: Re: Trying to buy my 1st Vintage Amp
Posted: Mon Jul 25, 2016 9:32 pm
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Good luck! Is it a tweed era Deluxe?

:mrgreen:


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Post subject: Re: Trying to buy my 1st Vintage Amp
Posted: Tue Jul 26, 2016 1:51 am
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I'll ask to expert before buying, after is too late.


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Post subject: Re: Trying to buy my 1st Vintage Amp
Posted: Tue Jul 26, 2016 11:40 am
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I own it just got a confirmation email!!
Quote:
Is it a tweed era Deluxe?
Its advertised as 1951 TV Model Deluxe. :mrgreen:
Quote:
I'll ask to expert before buying, after is too late.
Sometimes there is no time, it was an auction item. There were only two pictures available front/back. I believe I did ok, but will surely need some help to get it squared away properly.

What information I have from the auction site:
http://entertainment.ha.com/itm/vintage-guitars-and-musical-instruments/1951-fender-deluxe-tweed-guitar-amplifier-serial-1956/a/7153-85186.s?ic4=GalleryView-ShortDescription-071515


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Post subject: Re: Trying to buy my 1st Vintage Amp
Posted: Tue Jul 26, 2016 11:55 am
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Good luck! Most of the parts in that amp can be replaced, if need be. Back to absolute "showroom stock" --- prolly not. But, to reliable working condition, maintaining as much of the original tone.. yes.

BTW... it maybe the photo's angle, but those don't look like 6V6GT output tubes. Thinner glass envelope, like some mil spec tubes.


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Post subject: Re: Trying to buy my 1st Vintage Amp
Posted: Tue Jul 26, 2016 12:01 pm
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Quote:
BTW... it maybe the photo's angle, but those don't look like 6V6GT output tubes. Thinner glass, like some mil spec tubes.
Yeah, I noticed that also but wasn't overly concerned.

My intentions are to do as you have said, get it running properly w/ no more than minor violations to its integrity.
For the price of a new guitar, I couldn't let it go. Didn't even get a bid during the live auction. There is another 1953 still for sale; but the TV was cheaper and I liked it more overall.


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Post subject: Re: Trying to buy my 1st Vintage Amp
Posted: Tue Jul 26, 2016 1:18 pm
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BMW2002Ti wrote:
BTW... it maybe the photo's angle, but those don't look like 6V6GT output tubes. Thinner glass envelope, like some mil spec tubes.


+1

That rectum-frier looks wonky as well.

Arjay

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"Here's why reliability is job one: A great sounding amp that breaks down goes from being a favorite piece of gear to a useless piece of crap in less time than it takes to read this sentence." -- BRUCE ZINKY


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Post subject: Re: Trying to buy my 1st Vintage Amp
Posted: Tue Jul 26, 2016 1:35 pm
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That rectum-frier looks wonky as well.
ok, I had planned on resourcing replacements for all the tubes. If the current tubes are correct types, any problem using them to get initial readings? I realize they may be off spec, but as long as they light up, it would seem reasonable to put them on the front lines as opposed to new recruits.


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Post subject: Re: Trying to buy my 1st Vintage Amp
Posted: Tue Jul 26, 2016 4:10 pm
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If the tubes are all of the correct type and test as "good" or better, I see no reason that they couldn't be used to establish some base-line measurement data for the amp's general health and performance.

Arjay

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Post subject: Re: Trying to buy my 1st Vintage Amp
Posted: Tue Jul 26, 2016 6:42 pm
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Luckily, good NOS or strong testing tubes are available. For good prices. Even, the metal or glass 6SC7.


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Post subject: Re: Trying to buy my 1st Vintage Amp
Posted: Tue Jul 26, 2016 7:43 pm
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Thanks Arjay

Quote:
Luckily, good NOS or strong testing tubes are available. For good prices. Even, the metal or glass 6SC7.
I looked around today online, found a good variety new/used. I was thinking mostly of 6v6 metal vs glass, is there a significant sounding difference between the two or some other spec/characteristic that would be of concern?
Does the same question apply to the 6sc7's as far as performance.

Not having schematics available prior to the 5c3, the amp and the possibility that the layout has already been modified prevents me from jumping the gun on any real parts/pieces purchases.
I have already assumed the biggest risk buying the amp w/ so many unknowns.

Its shipping from Dallas, once I send them payment. So maybe mid/end next week I should have it at the house.

In hindsight, I should have driven up and attended the live auction budget in hand. But then I may not have had access to the chassis even then and I probably wouldn't have bought a guitar also(1993 Heritage 550). I did go over my budget by a couple bills sitting at the kitchen table though. I am giving myself a bonus $500 or so to work with and hopefully don't have any major issues. I have an alnico 25w Weber in my DRRI that I may donate to the new deluxe if need be.

I did do a lot of reference checking, on many of the amps in the last two auctions...some are beyond what I believe I'm capable of working on/maintaining at this point.


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Post subject: Re: Trying to buy my 1st Vintage Amp
Posted: Tue Jul 26, 2016 10:35 pm
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Generally speaking, the metal-cased tubes (such as the 6V6) cannot tolerate the higher voltages that 6V6GT's or 6V6GTA's typically operate at. IIRC, the 6V6 is good for about 330 to 350 VDC while the glass bottles are designed to run significantly hotter. This may not be a factor with a TV-front 5A3 or 5B3 where the plate voltages were relatively low. Check the power supply's B+ tap once you receive the amp to determine which tubes you can safely use.

Arjay

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"Here's why reliability is job one: A great sounding amp that breaks down goes from being a favorite piece of gear to a useless piece of crap in less time than it takes to read this sentence." -- BRUCE ZINKY


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Post subject: Re: Trying to buy my 1st Vintage Amp
Posted: Tue Jul 26, 2016 11:45 pm
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sfceric64 wrote:

I looked around today online, found a good variety new/used. I was thinking mostly of 6v6 metal vs glass, is there a significant sounding difference between the two or some other spec/characteristic that would be of concern?
Does the same question apply to the 6sc7's as far as performance.

Not having schematics available prior to the 5c3, the amp and the possibility that the layout has already been modified prevents me from jumping the gun on any real parts/pieces purchases.
I have already assumed the biggest risk buying the amp w/ so many unknowns.

Its shipping from Dallas, once I send them payment. So maybe mid/end next week I should have it at the house.

In hindsight, I should have driven up and attended the live auction budget in hand. But then I may not have had access to the chassis even then and I probably wouldn't have bought a guitar also(1993 Heritage 550). I did go over my budget by a couple bills sitting at the kitchen table though. I am giving myself a bonus $500 or so to work with and hopefully don't have any major issues. I have an alnico 25w Weber in my DRRI that I may donate to the new deluxe if need be.

I did do a lot of reference checking, on many of the amps in the last two auctions...some are beyond what I believe I'm capable of working on/maintaining at this point.


This is a 1953 TV Front Deluxe? I believe the TV Front has a 5B3 circuit. As did the early Wide Panel (late 1953?). AFAIK, the differences between the two circuits include coupling caps changes in input stages. Some minor voltage divide changes in the PI section, AND lack of global feedback in the 5B3 circuit. Though, the 5C3 has a very small GNFB (1 meg ohm resistor). No, prolly not too much difference, until you really crank the volume.

http://ampwares.com/schematics/deluxe_5b3.pdf

http://www.electronicstudio.net/schemat ... _schem.pdf

I would also use the glass 6V6GT. My experience with metal output tubes ----> microphonic. NOW, as for that 6SC7. You may want to keep the metal one in the amp. I like the tone of metal gain stage tubes. I've tried metal and glass 6SJ7 (pentode) in my Champion --- and I like the tone of the metal RCA 5693 (mil spec 6SJ7).

The 6SJ7/5693 has a mu of 20. The duo-triode 6SC7 has mu = 70. So, it maybe more prone to microphonics. The glass Tungsol 6SC7GTY is best tube of this type. Mil spec, micanol based. Around $40-50 apiece, for good NOS. I'd definitely get it from a good tube supplier. But, try the metal can tubes first. Bet, you may like them.

Example:

https://tubeworldexpress.com/products/c ... -25-single

5693 "can" tube in my Champion:

Image

Get a good rectifier. I recommend the 5Y3WGT (or 5Y3WGTB). Slow start-up, tough as nails. Best commercial types are the BP Tungsol, RCA, or GE 5Y3GT.

Those Astron caps coupling caps have a nice tone. BUT, they are kinda notorious for leaking DC. You may need to replace a few. I'd stick to red Jupiter Vintage. Very close tone to these OEM Astron caps.

That is a great speaker in the amp. I hope it is ok.

Photos of the circuit will help in terms of modifications. I really doubt much was done. That amp looks like it was in a closet for a LONG time. That is good.


Good luck! :mrgreen:


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Post subject: Re: Trying to buy my 1st Vintage Amp
Posted: Wed Jul 27, 2016 9:06 am
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Very nice congratulation on your first vintage amp, and it looks like you got a nice deal too
mud


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Post subject: Re: Trying to buy my 1st Vintage Amp
Posted: Wed Jul 27, 2016 10:37 am
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Quote:
Very nice congratulation on your first vintage amp, and it looks like you got a nice deal too
mud
Thanks, mud. It kept me awake for three hours, next morning I raised my bid to full ask.
Initially I thought that since it didn't get any bids during the auction the seller may take less post auction and then I asked myself if I were selling it would I take less---> heck no.
Quote:
the 6V6 is good for about 330 to 350 VDC while the glass bottles are designed to run significantly hotter
Thanks, that's what I thought the primary difference was.
Quote:
Check the power supply's B+ tap once you receive the amp
1st check after initial safety inspection, Wilco. I have the dual bias device from Amp-Head.
Quote:
This is a 1953 TV Front Deluxe? I believe the TV Front has a 5B3 circuit
Based on the amps upper back panel, I believe its a Jan-Jun 1951. They changed this panel(extended and vent holes added mid 51 from what I've read).
I believe the (a/b) are practically the same and the (c) added the NFB, went from 6v6 to 6v6gt, altered the inputs, electrolytic drop from 20uf to 16uf and the (d) reverted back to not having the NFB added the ext spk. The major significant tube changes didn't occur until the (e) circuit 6sc7 to 12ay7/12ax7.
I really appreciate the schematics links; I have the Aspen Pittman book/cd it doesn't have anything earlier than the 5c3. What really helped me over the edge was the Dave Hunter Amp Handbook, it has the TV 51 Deluxe highlighted w/ a color layout and brief descriptions.
Quote:
My experience with metal output tubes ----> microphonic
that's what I needed to hear or not hear.
Quote:
Get a good rectifier. I recommend the 5Y3WGT (or 5Y3WGTB). Slow start-up, tough as nails. Best commercial types are the BP Tungsol, RCA, or GE 5Y3GT.
I saw a lot of Sylvania and JAN types, isn't that what the "w" represents mil spec? I recently missed a good score on several of these NOS tubes, 5u4's and 6sc7 at a garage sale. :cry:
Quote:
I'd stick to red Jupiter Vintage. Very close tone to these OEM Astron caps.
Thanks, I was wondering about the Fender labeled red/yellow/blue variety, any experience there?
Quote:
That is a great speaker in the amp. I hope it is ok.
Same here, again I cant see any label in the pics available but as long as its a good 50's model R/Q I'll be ok. If its a good N rated I'll swap it for the Weber.

Thanks again for all advice and support.


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