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Post subject: Lessons
Posted: Sat Jul 05, 2014 11:21 am
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Are most Bass players self-taught?


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Post subject: Re: Lessons
Posted: Sat Jul 05, 2014 1:08 pm
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I have had lessons for piano and guitar but self taught on the bass.

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Post subject: Re: Lessons
Posted: Sat Jul 05, 2014 2:15 pm
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I never had formal bass lessons but did learn techniques from more advanced players. I have given bass lessons however. I would imagine like myself most bassists started as guitar players and are mostly self taught but there certainly are plenty of bass instructors and students out there.

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Post subject: Re: Lessons
Posted: Sat Jul 05, 2014 3:17 pm
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Thanks. I take formal lessons, but it appears most professional and semi-pro are all self-taught.


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Post subject: Re: Lessons
Posted: Sun Jul 06, 2014 4:47 am
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I take lessons, focusing mostly on theory - the big advantage is speed of learning. There is nothing I have learnt that can't be learned from a book or discussion - it just takes longer (I would guess much longer).

I would get lessons - you will know when you have had enough.


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Post subject: Re: Lessons
Posted: Sun Jul 06, 2014 7:51 am
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I never had any formal lessons. They just weren't available. A violin teacher willing to teach double bass violin was all there was, and at a price far above my meager means.

Some techniques, you just need to be shown hands on. This is why my slap technique is so laughably horrible. It's also easier to learn to read music with professional instruction. My reading ability sucks.

But nowadays sooooo much good instruction is available online and on DVD. There's a whole lot of bad out there too that is very detrimental not only to you but to your bass also. If you're a teenager and don't know any better it's hard to be aware and aviod the pitfalls.

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Post subject: Re: Lessons
Posted: Mon Jul 28, 2014 6:51 am
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A couple of points.

1. For most people teaching yourself bass is like defending yourself in court. Only a fool has himself for a client. In self instruction you will teach yourself just enough to "get by." Often that isn't enough. You tend to skip things like scales and key signatures. I too had no bass instructor early on because there were not any in the northeast Georgia mountains where I grew up. Banjo and fiddle yes, bass no. I had learned some theory and how to read treble clef while playing woodwinds and drums in high school. Later I went through two college level programs in guitar at a local community college. That was not years wasted but not as beneficial as I thought it would be for a bassist. So next I went to two private instructors, each for about 3 months. Both were primarily very good guitar players who were instructing guitar and also willing to instruct bass. Neither were what I'd call excellent bassists. I found that being a competent skilled guitarist and great guitar instructor does not automatically translate into being a decent electric bass instructor. So, ultimately I sought out a true bass instructor and began going to bass clinics in Atlanta, Athens, Greenville, Spartanburg, Charlotte, Greensboro, Raleigh. Then on a trip to visit family in Orange County California I went to a clinic at Cal State Fullerton where I found a true bass instructor I thought I should try. Three lessons with them and I was 100% better. You can teach yourself to read bass clef, you can teach yourself the bass fretboard, you can teach yourself key signatures, scales and the circle of fifths. What you can not do is develop style without hands on guidance from an instructor whose primary instrument is bass.

2. Yes in today's world it is very different than when I came along. There are online courses of instruction, most of which make more of an introduction than anything else. There are DVD's and at least 20 times more bass instruction books available now than in the late 1960's when I started. There also is TAB, which you can use to learn a few of your favorite popular songs to play along with to keep your interest up, but tab is good for little beyond covers. It is best to learn to read bass clef notation and also to read treble clef so you can transpose it to create a bass part when no bass clef is available. Guitarists are notorious for more than a few things and one of them is the inability to read standard notation. That's why in most sheet music the guitar chords are printed over the notation. It is also why a few ace players who can read standard notation have long running studio careers. The same is true for electric bassists. Many very famous, popular and successful electric bassists and guitarists who can not read one note in standard notation wound up making huge fortunes in the music business mostly by the luck of picking the right band to join. Unless you hit the lottery like these lucky ones, it is better to be able to sightread than not be able to sightread, even if you have to pencil in the note names over the notes on the page there is no shame in that. I routinely see AFM member violinists and horn players do the same thing. If you don't learn notation you are stuck playing just what is tabbed or what you can figure out by ear. Some people do great at playing by ear with not one single lesson and my hat is off to them. Others like me are just not natural born bassists before seeking out personal guidance.

Can you play bass without instruction? Yes. But you can also play golf without taking lessons from a golf pro. I don't recommend either. Variation on an old joke, "Why are a divorce, golf lessons and electric bass lessons so expensive? Because they are all worth it."


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Post subject: Re: Lessons
Posted: Mon Jul 28, 2014 8:03 am
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I'm of two minds on this. First, lessons are only bad if you don't really want to learn. Which is generally the fault of both the teacher and the student. Meaning that when paying for lessons by choice you should be getting lessons tailored to what you want to learn and taught in a way that works for you. I am mostly self taught. I had 3 lessons when I was a kid. How to hold the bass, how to make it make noise, and how to read the bass clef. All from the perspective of a guitarist and "professional instructor" who felt I need to learn how to play what he called "good music". None of which taught me anything about how and what I wanted to play.

The problem with most electric instrument instruction is that it's lazy. Yes, "professional" instructors at music stores are no different than those who try to teach mass groups of children in public school. They tell you what to play, how to play and when to play it. However, they rarely teach you why. Well, Until much later down the road when you delve into theory.

Also, most modern music store teachers teach music from a scale perspective and never delve into the theory of it outside of the scales itself. (How chords and chord voicing connect, ect within progressions and how to choose notes, and why certain choices are appropriate for certain times) This gets into composition and carries over to songwriting and not just constructing lines, or solos. It's kind of like teaching people how to repeat sentences without teaching them the meaning of the words. Sure the person can regurgitate pieces deftly. However, they have no idea what or why they just played what they did. From an institutional standpoint in the classic disciplines this is done to maintain authority. For the more hobbyist perspective it's simply done from a laziness standpoint. "Hey, you can now play smoke on the water! I taught you how to play guitar!" However, control over the knowledge of how to construct and create and not just reproduce is important to the music "industry". It's also why most music now days is creatively bankrupt.

All of which add up to explain why many modern bassist can run their scales super fast, but don't come up with very interesting lines. Because they don't really delve into how to connect chords together. How chord voicings and the notes that connect them may have nothing to do with scales. The main reason for this is because this is the method used to teach most modern amateur guitarists. Most "professional" bass instructors are simply guitarists who are taking their method of guitar instruction and delivering it to bassists because they think it's "easy cash" and that bass is a "simple instrument".

HOWEVER, good instruction as a bassist is much different. I think the first thing you need to find to get good bass instruction is to get instruction from an actual bassist. Which is a lot harder to find than one might think. Most music shops do not hire "Bass techs", or "Bass instructors". They hire guitar techs and guitar instructors and use them to do those functions for bass customers. Which is why getting work done on a bass, buying a bass, or getting instruction on the bass from a local shop can be a dicey proposition.

So. If you are in an area where there is an actual bassist that does instruction, and is a good teacher who will support you in pursuing the skills needed to help you play and understand the music you want to play. Then first, count your blessings. Then go for it. If you're in an area where you will be getting poor instruction from some hold over from the 80's hair metal era who is a "total shredder" and thinks that bass is a "second class instrument". Then run. Like hell.

In the end, education is only worthwhile if the student truly longs to learn and the teacher is able to present the information in a digestible and enjoyable manner. Otherwise it becomes a chore and it's simply schooling. Which is rarely good for the student.

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Post subject: Re: Lessons
Posted: Mon Jul 28, 2014 10:09 am
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I think I am in the middle...not sure how to respond.

I learned to read bass clef playing the trombone in school. I learned the location of the notes on a bass by making a supersized, cardboard mock up of a fret board and memorizing it, bass in hand, open through eleven. So I can read music, I have some knowledge (mostly forgotten) of theory, etc., but I taught myself how to play.

It wasn't until my "second coming" as a more mature adult that I started seeking out help with technique, which for me is an ongoing process. If I had to rate myself on a scale of 1-10 as a bassist, I think I would put myself as a solid six, just a bit above average. The thing is, ten years ago or so, I would have put myself at a four. I could play a song acceptably, but I actually had to work harder at it because my technique sucked. So now, at 62, I don't pass up an opportunity to work on technique with someone whose skills I respect. I want to get better. I want to move that 6 to an 8, which might be tough with the fingers losing their flexibility. To this end I have decided to take a few lessons with Carol Kaye, via Skype, and have ordered some of her suggested materials to use during instruction. I have chosen her because she is a proven commodity. Finding a true bass instructor in my area has proven impossible.

Long story short. I should have taken lessons back in the day. It is tough to unlearn bad habits.

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Post subject: Re: Lessons
Posted: Mon Jul 28, 2014 1:49 pm
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ALRIGHT!!!! Have my first lesson with Carol Kaye tomorrow afternoon. I am psyched! Maybe this old dog can actually learn something new, although my learning skills have probably diminished as well.

What a nice person. Personal touch. Now maybe I can move that 6 to an 8. This is 45 years too late, and gives a whole new meaning to "better late than never".

Steve

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Post subject: Re: Lessons
Posted: Mon Jul 28, 2014 7:26 pm
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Good luck Affprod. She is the best bar none. Soak it all up.


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Post subject: Re: Lessons
Posted: Mon Jul 28, 2014 7:31 pm
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TheKingofPain wrote:
...most modern music store teachers teach music from a scale perspective and never delve into the theory of it outside of the scales itself. (How chords and chord voicing connect, ect within progressions and how to choose notes, and why certain choices are appropriate for certain times) This gets into composition and carries over to songwriting and not just constructing lines, or solos. It's kind of like teaching people how to repeat sentences without teaching them the meaning of the words. Sure the person can regurgitate pieces deftly. However, they have no idea what or why they just played what they did....

....All of which add up to explain why many modern bassist can run their scales super fast, but don't come up with very interesting lines. Because they don't really delve into how to connect chords together. How chord voicings and the notes that connect them may have nothing to do with scales. The main reason for this is because this is the method used to teach most modern amateur guitarists. Most "professional" bass instructors are simply guitarists who are taking their method of guitar instruction and delivering it to bassists because they think it's "easy cash" and that bass is a "simple instrument".

HOWEVER, good instruction as a bassist is much different. I think the first thing you need to find to get good bass instruction is to get instruction from an actual bassist. Which is a lot harder to find than one might think. Most music shops do not hire "Bass techs", or "Bass instructors". They hire guitar techs and guitar instructors and use them to do those functions for bass customers.....

So. If you are in an area where there is an actual bassist that does instruction, and is a good teacher who will support you in pursuing the skills needed to help you play and understand the music you want to play. Then first, count your blessings. Then go for it. If you're in an area where you will be getting poor instruction from some hold over from the 80's hair metal era who is a "total shredder" and thinks that bass is a "second class instrument". Then run. Like hell.

In the end, education is only worthwhile if the student truly longs to learn and the teacher is able to present the information in a digestible and enjoyable manner. Otherwise it becomes a chore and it's simply schooling. Which is rarely good for the student.


+1 on all that! Chordal play techniques and tying chords with leading notes are very good things to learn.


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Post subject: Re: Lessons
Posted: Tue Jul 29, 2014 9:47 am
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Thanks to everyone!


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Post subject: Re: Lessons
Posted: Tue Aug 12, 2014 4:33 pm
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Quote:
The problem with most electric instrument instruction is that it's lazy. Yes, "professional" instructors at music stores are no different than those who try to teach mass groups of children in public school. They tell you what to play, how to play and when to play it. However, they rarely teach you why. Well, Until much later down the road when you delve into theory.

Also, most modern music store teachers teach music from a scale perspective and never delve into the theory of it outside of the scales itself. (How chords and chord voicing connect, ect within progressions and how to choose notes, and why certain choices are appropriate for certain times) This gets into composition and carries over to songwriting and not just constructing lines, or solos. It's kind of like teaching people how to repeat sentences without teaching them the meaning of the words. Sure the person can regurgitate pieces deftly. However, they have no idea what or why they just played what they did. From an institutional standpoint in the classic disciplines this is done to maintain authority. For the more hobbyist perspective it's simply done from a laziness standpoint. "Hey, you can now play smoke on the water! I taught you how to play guitar!" However, control over the knowledge of how to construct and create and not just reproduce is important to the music "industry". It's also why most music now days is creatively bankrupt.

All of which add up to explain why many modern bassist can run their scales super fast, but don't come up with very interesting lines. Because they don't really delve into how to connect chords together. How chord voicings and the notes that connect them may have nothing to do with scales. The main reason for this is because this is the method used to teach most modern amateur guitarists. Most "professional" bass instructors are simply guitarists who are taking their method of guitar instruction and delivering it to bassists because they think it's "easy cash" and that bass is a "simple instrument".


This is very well put and it should be read by anyone seeking bass lessons. Unfortunately those are the only kind of bass teachers available in some regions and this kind of instruction puts off potential students. The other kind of teacher to watch out for is the bass teacher who only teaches players how to slap!

Slap bass is useless anywhere outside of the Music store you play to impress your friends! You can't really get a paying gig if that is all you know on bass.

How many songs that you like are using a slapped bass part? A very small percentage of what you listen to and yet that is what you hear 90% of the "bass players" using when trying out instruments at The local Music Store.
Slap can be easily self-taught but it is like eating cotton candy instead of real food for your dinner. It tastes good for a while but you will soon run out of energy and the opportunity to use it.

Understanding Chord tones and how to play and fit them together is the key to being a creative and supportive bassist in any group.
Technique should focus on: accurate finger placement behind each fret, quality in tone, articulation and two-finger right hand technique for beginner bassists.
I taught bass for years starting in 1973 when I took over my teacher's students at his request when he went in for heart surgery.
I tried to give my students a good foundation in bass knowledge and music theory because you cannot play a given song in a new key without knowing how the chords relate to each other.
I am not currently teaching bass because I am playing too often with three dif. bands.

Good luck to all bassists and especially to afprod who is starting lessons with Carol Kaye.

I am sure that you will benefit greatly from such a great teacher.

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Post subject: Re: Lessons
Posted: Fri Aug 15, 2014 5:52 am
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My lessons were from guys that were way better than me when I was young. Then hundreds of hours of playing. Learning bass parts to all the popular songs with the help of a couple guys who had a better ear. That developed my ear. Technique - same way untill much later when I got into Jazz via books and DVD's. That opened a new era of playing. I understood so much more after that. It enabled me to tell how someone played without seeing it. Where they most likely were on the neck- etc. Time is a big thing for learning. To make time. Growing up without the modern technology both hindered and most of all helped me. There wasn't much to interfere with my learning except maybe girls. BUT hey that even made me practice more- right?


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