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Post subject: To shim or not to shim... that is the question
Posted: Thu Nov 20, 2014 2:56 pm
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With apologies to Willy the Shake (and Joni Mitchell)... but I digress.

Hi! My name is Eugie. I'm a looooong time lover of the bass and a recent convert.
Old enough to now to buy all the things I couldn't afford as a 16 year old, I have a Hofner 500/1, an '81 RIC 4001, a '69 Gibson EB-3 and, now, a new '12 (or is 12/06/12 a '13?) AVRI '64 Jazz. Gave up a MIM fretless to get it. Oh my, it's beautiful and sounds SCARY good.

I am, though, also a long time guitar player and those big strings and high action scare me.
Not a problem with the shorter scale basses (although the action on my EB-3 would probably appall y'all. I find Fender's stock 6/64" to be a tad tall for me. As it is, I have the E and G saddles down as low as they can go just to get to that 6'64". So, breaking my cardinal rule of "one change at a time", I took out a 1/4 turn of relief and shimmed the neck. That actually got things going pretty good but then my strings all died at the 15th or 16th fret (not that I play that high up) so I put back 1/8" of relief and took out the shim.
I still have some trouble at the 16th and 17th frets, mostly with the A & D strings.

So, should I put the shim back to get more adjustability? Or was (is?) my relief the problem? I do have some buzz playing the E aggressively in the lower frets.
Is there anything to be done or do I just have to HTFU and work within Fender's limits?

Great bass though... oh my, yes

Thanks!


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Post subject: Re: To shim or not to shim... that is the question
Posted: Thu Nov 20, 2014 6:15 pm
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Ah. Been at this too long, maybe.

Sighted the neck (body to the head) and it all looked nice and even. Look closely at the frets and they looked fine, too. But, on a whim, I grabbed the dowel & tack hammer and gave a couple frets a tap. Problem might be solved.

I'd still love to hear your thoughts on shimming vs not. My saddles are pretty maxed (minned?) out

Thanks


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Post subject: Re: To shim or not to shim... that is the question
Posted: Thu Nov 20, 2014 6:44 pm
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Eugie wrote:
With apologies to Willy the Shake (and Joni Mitchell)... but I digress.

Hi! My name is Eugie. I'm a looooong time lover of the bass and a recent convert.
Old enough to now to buy all the things I couldn't afford as a 16 year old, I have a Hofner 500/1, an '81 RIC 4001, a '69 Gibson EB-3 and, now, a new '12 (or is 12/06/12 a '13?) AVRI '64 Jazz. Gave up a MIM fretless to get it. Oh my, it's beautiful and sounds SCARY good.

I am, though, also a long time guitar player and those big strings and high action scare me.
Not a problem with the shorter scale basses (although the action on my EB-3 would probably appall y'all. I find Fender's stock 6/64" to be a tad tall for me. As it is, I have the E and G saddles down as low as they can go just to get to that 6'64". So, breaking my cardinal rule of "one change at a time", I took out a 1/4 turn of relief and shimmed the neck. That actually got things going pretty good but then my strings all died at the 15th or 16th fret (not that I play that high up) so I put back 1/8" of relief and took out the shim.
I still have some trouble at the 16th and 17th frets, mostly with the A & D strings.

So, should I put the shim back to get more adjustability? Or was (is?) my relief the problem? I do have some buzz playing the E aggressively in the lower frets.
Is there anything to be done or do I just have to HTFU and work within Fender's limits?

Great bass though... oh my, yes

Thanks!


So you just decided to start wacking at the frets with a hammer? I think you should take your bass to a tech, or Rob. Who's Rob? Who's Willy the Shake? Who rang that bell?

The Pawn Shop is with the hospital?


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Post subject: Re: To shim or not to shim... that is the question
Posted: Thu Nov 20, 2014 6:58 pm
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The radius of the board may be causing a reset of the saddles.

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Post subject: Re: To shim or not to shim... that is the question
Posted: Thu Nov 20, 2014 7:22 pm
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I won't pretend to follow of this but I think you're overestimating the "whack"


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Post subject: Re: To shim or not to shim... that is the question
Posted: Fri Nov 21, 2014 9:24 am
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Eugie wrote:
I won't pretend to follow of this but I think you're overestimating the "whack"

I read the word tap. I did not read the word whack. Think nothing of it. If you stick around you will find your posts can be factual and still come under attack. Shed that crap like water off a duck's back and you'll be fine. That's what I do. Welcome to the forum.

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Post subject: Re: To shim or not to shim... that is the question
Posted: Fri Nov 21, 2014 10:52 am
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Hi Eugie,

About shims- I say use them if you need them.

You can always remove shims if they are too high.

You didn't say what you used as a shim, but you may find that a thinner shim will be perfect for the job.

One of my favorite shims is a thin pick. They give just enough lift to solve a lot of action problems on a Fender bass.

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Post subject: Re: To shim or not to shim... that is the question
Posted: Fri Nov 21, 2014 1:04 pm
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We'd have to see how your neck bows.

With your frets dying off at the 16th fret, it sounds like you have not only raised the neck heel from the neck pocket but also created a slant in the process. Slanting a headstock-access truss rod sometimes needs to be done. Sometimes that 20th fret has what is called a "ski Jump" that needs a slant shim.

Your AVRI likely only has bow starting at the 5th or 6th fret up to the nut with the rest of the neck(7th fret-20th) being visably straight. Slant shims won't work in that situation. Try centering your shim a little better.

Good luck to ya. Willy the Shake too.


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Post subject: Re: To shim or not to shim... that is the question
Posted: Sat Nov 22, 2014 1:13 am
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OK, that's much more helpful :D

I used the ol' business card for a shim. I'm pretty convinced at this point that my truss rod adjust -or, misadjustment- was the prime culprit. I'm giving it a few more days to settle in but, even now, the relief is under .012" and there is *some* slap in the E & A. It's not entirely objectionable, really, and though the A & D are still a little thin at the 18th or 19th fret, they do play and I don't see myself spending a whole lot of time up there any time soon. At this point, I think I'll live with it for a while. It's about as different from an EB-3 as you can get (everything about the Jazz is BIG) but I'm still pretty astounded by the power of this bass. It's crisp but it's deep. I'd love to try some flats on it.


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Post subject: Re: To shim or not to shim... that is the question
Posted: Sat Nov 22, 2014 5:14 pm
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Did it change the sound of the bass?


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Post subject: Re: To shim or not to shim... that is the question
Posted: Fri Nov 28, 2014 12:59 am
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Did it change the sound?
I'd have to say no... or the change is not appreciable or readily discernible.

So, in the end, I took the neck off again & added back a bit more relief.
I left the shim out.
The action is fine... not the lowest I have but VERY playable.
The E & G saddles are down as far as they go but since the action is about perfect, I'm leaving it alone. Then, we'll see where we are when I put the flatwounds on it.


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Post subject: Re: To shim or not to shim... that is the question
Posted: Sat Dec 06, 2014 6:51 pm
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I had similar issues with a G&L L2500, for years I couldn't get it just right. I tried shims and had decent action, but to me, saddle height can be a really good indicator of an instrument's setup quality. The bass was playing fairly well with shims in place but I felt the saddle heights were extreme and it bothered me. I ended up removing the shims, adding some relief and voila! I got the action quite low and comfortable. Of course if you really dig over the neck pickup it'll buzz a certain amount, but correct me if I'm wrong, I've always believed there's a bit of compromise in terms of that. Anyway, with all that done I found the G string choking around the 16th fret. Tapped the suspect fret/frets with the butt end of a screwdriver, no luck. I ended up having a luthier level the frets a bit (after all, the frets in that area were pretty well brand new whereas in more commonly played areas of the board they had a substantial amount of wear) and in the end, the bass plays incredibly well.

Summary, look to saddle height to indicate the health of a setup! They shouldn't be extremely high or low, if they are, it's a sign that some other piece of the puzzle isn't right. Since I learned that it has made a major positive impact on my setups.


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