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Post subject: Looking for a good Tube Amp
Posted: Sun Sep 14, 2014 6:09 pm
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Is there such a thing as a Tube amplifier built for Bass guitars??
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This may sound like a dumb question ... However ... I have NEVER seen one in ANY store ...... EVER
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And I live in Austin, Texas
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Surely somebody somewhere makes one.


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Post subject: Re: Looking for a good Tube Amp
Posted: Mon Sep 15, 2014 12:51 am
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Why yes Chris! There have always been all tube bass amps around since the electric bass was perfected. There is a lot of hard earned experience in this response to your post. Please read it and take it to heart.

Fender's current Bassman Pro line consists of two all tube heads. One is 100 watts, the other is 300 watts. They are GREAT sounding amps.

Ampeg's SVT is also a 300 watt all tube amp and has been offered continuously since 1969, but with some tube compliment and cosmetic changes. Ampeg also makes a 100 watter. I've used the SVT in both the stand alone head and the rack mounted head versions. Marshall, Peavey, MarkBass, Orange, Mesa Boogie & EBS have all had all tube bass heads out recently or that are still in production. I think the Marshall and the MarkBass all tube heads have actually been recently discontinued but all those other makers currently produce at least one high power all tube bass head. (It looks for all the world that Marshall is getting out of the pro bass amp business completely to me. There is not a single bass amp in the official 2014 Marshall catalog. Not even a bass practice amp! Sort of painful to me since I think the Marshall Superbass I had was maybe the best sounding bass head tonal-wise I ever had. It is between that one and the Sunn 2000S which was over twice as powerful. They both were good heads, but the Marshall had killer tone.)

The reason you don't see all tube bass heads in stores is because they are very expensive so they don't sell nearly as well as much cheaper solid state bass amps. Solid state amps look better on paper in the watt to dollar ratio. Only a small percentage of bass head sales will be all tube amps. Guessing that somewhere around one all tube bass head is solid for every 500 solid state bass amps. The ratio of tube to solid state might actually be lower. Stores don't like $2,000 to $3,000 bass heads sitting around for long. It is hard enough to sell a $800 solid state one. Bass amps in general don't sell as well as guitar amps and all tube bass amps sell far fewer units than any other amp I can think of except maybe Motion Sound organ amps. Most dealers will ORDER one for you. The ONLINE DEALERS will ship you one tomorrow. HOWEVER, I would only buy an all tube bass head from a local dealer who offers qualified service for it.

There are some real advantages to all tube bass amps and some disadvantages too. The main advantages and what makes them worthwhile are apparent loudness and rich tone. For tone and power they are unbeatable. A 300 watt tube bass amp sounds way louder than a 300 watt solid state bass amp. You'd probably need at least a 1200 watt solid state amp to get as loud db wise as a 300 watt all tube amp. The reason is headroom. Solid state amps just don't have the headroom of a tube amp. Low frequency bass tones eat up clean power in a solid state amp more quickly than people realize. Another advantage is all tube bass amps have NO HISS at all! Just pure tone! Solid state bass amps are notorious for hissing when used with a full range cab. Heck some solid state combos hiss like crazy too. I had an Ampeg BA115 rehearsal combo one time that sounded like bacon frying if you turned the treble over half way.

Disadvantages of an all tube amp include much heavier weight, much higher purchase cost, the inherent fragility of tubes plus more frequent and more costly maintenance. Also you have to remember that the tubes of today are not the tubes of yesterday. Tubes are only being made in China and Russia these days. Even the Groove Tubes, JJ's, Ruby, Mullard and other big names. New old stock USA made tubes do exist and there are sources that specialize in them, but they are outrageous in cost. You only have to read a few reviews of the current tube bass amps to find someone complaining of tubes failing early or other maintenance woes. There are numerous threads on this and other player forums where the current crop of production tubes are discussed with the emphasis being how to find decent ones.

People accustomed to using the same solid state amp for a decade or more with no service issues whatsoever may not realize that all tube amps are an entirely different animal and they are more demanding in their care and feeding.

My advice is not to buy a tube amp unless the place you buy it can maintain it for you or you know someone who will that is young enough to outlive you. (My long running tube amp tech who was an ex-Navy sparks died at 52 years old of a sudden heart attack. It took me two years to find another decent tube amp tech and he got killed less than two years later when he fell out of his fishing boat in his mid 40's. I have not ran across a decent tube tech since! This is old technology and nobody is teaching tube technology at community college anymore. Most people who actually KNOW this stuff inside and out are DEAD or will be soon.)

Warranty work turnarounds at factory service centers can be astoundingly long and tube heads are frightfully expensive to ship to a warranty service center if one is not nearby. Also most makers only warranty the tubes in their amps for 90 days and after that you pay for replacement tubes anyway even if the amp itself has a 5 year warranty. This is usually in the small print on the warranty statement. I think the people working at warranty service centers have a terrible grasp on tube technology.

I would always have a compact solid state head at the ready as a backup for an all tube head. This means you will be moving not only a cruise-ship-anchor-heavy tube head but also a backup head. The super light heads like today's Fender Rumble heads would make a great backup because they are so small and light. I still have my old solid state backup head, a Peavey Century 200, but the tube heads I've owned are long gone. The Century saw little actual use as a backup but did save the show at least twice and since has been relegated to being a rehearsal head. It is a 1976 model and still going strong. A remarkable $179 purchase.

Wisdom for anyone considering an all tube bass head: "When an all tube bass head works it is nothing short of spectacular but when it doesn't you'll wish you had a backup." Have a backup plan, even if it is just a Tech 21 Bass Driver to feed direct to the PA. If you have an all tube head then you MUST have a backup plan. A backup head is best. At the least some sort of pedal with an XLR out to feed the PA will save the day. Even a Behringer BDI-21 is better than nothing.

Being an older player I abandoned the far heavier tube heads about 15 years ago when it just wasn't fun to move them anymore and solid state stuff got to be pretty darn decent and much lighter. At 60 years old with two torn rotator cuffs I wouldn't move a tube head by myself now at all for less than $200. Frankly moving my rack of all solid state stuff is chore enough. If I had roadies, then I'd probably consider playing tubes. Only then.

Solid state has the advantages of reliability, lighter weight, lower initial cost and lower power consumption. They just aren't as loud nor as lush.

Today's hybrid bass amps have a tube preamp, usually a single 12AX7, in front of a hig powered solid state power amp. This arrangement sounds pretty good tone-wise but still lacks the oomph of an all tube head. Hybrids are a good compromise for tone but do not help with volume unless you get one that is about 1200 watts RMS. If getting a hybrid it is important to get one with both a solid state preamp and the tube preamp so you can switch to the solid state preamp if the tube goes at a gig, or again take an all solid state backup as I did for about 20 years. The Ampeg SVTIII Pro is such a hybrid head and there are many other hybrids with the tube/solid state preamp option. Fender was making a fantabulous 1200 watt Bassman hybrid head prior to the all tube Bassman Pro heads of today.

I love the sound and power of tube bass heads, but the older you get the lighter you want stuff to be if you are moving it all by yourself. Also since my tube techs up and died I'm done with tubes. Done. They are for people with the desire to move them. I don't have it anymore.

Let's be honest about the way things really are today. So long as you have a decent PA system with subs, all you need is a stage monitor so you and the drummer can hear what you are playing and the PA tech can mix your XLR direct out to get a good front of house mix. The days of having to truck an 8x10 and a SVT or Fender Super Bassman 300 tube head or other high powered tube head have been over for a decade. The walls of amps at many shows are just fake fronts. Behind them is a little combo with a microphone in front of it. I'm not making this up, that is what is really happening.

So yes, all tube bass amps exist and have continuously since Leo Fender created the P-Bass. For power and tone there is NOTHING like a tube bass amp. But the disadvantages of an all tube bass head means that you have to weigh the decision to go in that direction carefully. For touring pros playing arenas with roadies and techs it is a very good way to go. For old farts like me who play local gigs, not so much. I'll just take a little combo, point it at my head and XLR out to the PA to let the tech worry about mixing it to sound right. It works for me.

I honestly think that is where things stand now. Sure a big rig looks impressive, but with today's PA technology a big rig isn't really necessary. If your band has a truck load of sound gear and you are moving a refrigerator cab and a tube head you are killing yourself for nothing. The tech is going to tell you to turn down anyway. So don't kill yourself for nothing. If you are in a band without a bass capable PA you don't need all that much power anyway or you'll drown everyone else out and it will sound horrible.

I'll never forget the time one guy came up to me during a break and said, "You are a really good bass player." Then he went on to say, "But you are too loud." I really took what he said to heart and began working on fitting into the band's mix better instead of trying to drive the whole band. That was in the SVT II days. I decided it was better to figure out how I and the drummer could hear what I was playing and let the sound tech mix it front of house instead of playing as loud as I could and having the tech struggle to mix everything else to me. I switched to a marginally small combo with an XLR out to the PA and I think it actually worked better. The bassist is not the most important person in the band. Everyone is equally important. It doesn't matter how good a player you are, if you are too loud and overbearing...even though you are a good player...then you are making the entire band suck. I never want to hear what that guy said to me again.


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Post subject: Re: Looking for a good Tube Amp
Posted: Mon Sep 15, 2014 2:11 pm
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+1 to Brother Dave's remarks, including the weight us older guys can tote, but I want to address one point that was overlooked.

I really like the tone my tube head gives me. Even at low volumes it is incredible. Oh yeah, it is loud when it needs to be, but I spend a whole lot more time playing bass at home than I do playing on stage where a PA is available. And that "home time" is made more enjoyable by my tube amp.

I turn 63 this week. Not sure how many more years I will want to haul it around. Even now, I take my Rumble 100 combo to practices. But even when I get to the point where I don't want to take the big amp out, or even if I stop gigging all together, it will still be sitting in my music room, giving me a great deal of pleasure. It is not something I would want to be without....just another thing my wife will have to sell when I croak.

I guess my point is, when comparing amps, think beyond just the gig. Look at the whole picture and buy what is best suited to all your musical needs (and wants for that matter). A tube amp, as pointed out, is expensive. It is an long term investment. I have only owned three in my lifetime.

(Note: Weight was something I looked at. The SB300 was 65 pounds vs the 80 pounds of the SVT CL. It may, or may not be important to you.)

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Post subject: Re: Looking for a good Tube Amp
Posted: Mon Sep 15, 2014 4:07 pm
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WoW ...... I really hit the jackpot in this post ...... When it comes to knowledgeable advice !!!
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Thank You to brotherdave ...... And also to affprod ...... For the wisdom of experience.
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A solid state amp might make more sense at this time.
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I will look around and see what is out there
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I buy a lot of my gear on Craigslist since I live in Austin, TX and there is a pretty good selection at any given time.


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Post subject: Re: Looking for a good Tube Amp
Posted: Mon Sep 15, 2014 6:51 pm
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The Fender Super Bassman is the 300 watt version, of the Fender Bassman 100T, 100 watt head.

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Post subject: Re: Looking for a good Tube Amp
Posted: Tue Sep 16, 2014 9:33 am
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For a lower wattage and lower priced tube amp it's hard to beat the bang-for-buck value of a Traynor YBA-1. You can pick them up in the used market for a song. The history of this head is that it was designed for bass guitar but guitar players began using it because the design was similar to a Marshall Plexi. The original amp was 45 watts, then they bumped up the power to 90 I think. The amp was discontinued many years ago. Traynor has recently re-issued the amp and they are marketing it as a guitar amp but it was originally designed as a bass amp. It might be worth a look-see. They've added a couple of features aimed at guitarists but if it's a re-issue the actual circuit should prolly be almost identical to the original. I've played bass on an original YBA-1 and other than needing more power for large venues it was a beautiful sounding bass amp. Absolutely gorgeous. With a larger cab like a 610 or 810 it would be loud enough for small to medium sized gigs. You can try looking in the used market for an original. A 90 watter would be killer with a big cabinet.

Here is a link to the re-issue.

YBA-1Mod1

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Post subject: Re: Looking for a good Tube Amp
Posted: Wed Sep 17, 2014 12:36 am
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affprod wrote:
+1 to Brother Dave's remarks, including the weight us older guys can tote, but I want to address one point that was overlooked.

I really like the tone my tube head gives me. Even at low volumes it is incredible. Oh yeah, it is loud when it needs to be, but I spend a whole lot more time playing bass at home than I do playing on stage where a PA is available. And that "home time" is made more enjoyable by my tube amp.

I turn 63 this week. Not sure how many more years I will want to haul it around. Even now, I take my Rumble 100 combo to practices. But even when I get to the point where I don't want to take the big amp out, or even if I stop gigging all together, it will still be sitting in my music room, giving me a great deal of pleasure. It is not something I would want to be without....just another thing my wife will have to sell when I croak.

I guess my point is, when comparing amps, think beyond just the gig. Look at the whole picture and buy what is best suited to all your musical needs (and wants for that matter). A tube amp, as pointed out, is expensive. It is an long term investment. I have only owned three in my lifetime.

(Note: Weight was something I looked at. The SB300 was 65 pounds vs the 80 pounds of the SVT CL. It may, or may not be important to you.)


I don't think I overlooked the tone thing. I wrote: "The main advantages and what makes them worthwhile are apparent loudness and rich tone. For tone and power they are unbeatable."

Agree with you completely. Even hybrids with tube preamps don't sound the same as an all tube amp. It is an entirely different animal.


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Post subject: Re: Looking for a good Tube Amp
Posted: Wed Sep 17, 2014 3:37 pm
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Hey Brother Dave,

I just wanted to point out the value of "home time" vs gig time. I know we are on the same page when it comes to tone. Sorry if I gave the wrong impression. The time spent playing at home for your own enjoyment is manytimes left out of the equation when researching gear purchases.

Coming your way in November.

Steve

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Post subject: Re: Looking for a good Tube Amp
Posted: Wed Sep 17, 2014 8:51 pm
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Thank You also to Mr. Nylon and BMW-KTM for your input
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Last night ... I ended up purchasing an American made Fender "RAD" Bass Amplifier
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I found it on Craigslist here in Austin
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l actually went to look at a Fender Rumble 15 that a guy had for sale
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He had this Fender "RAD" sitting next to it ... I asked if I could plug my Bass onto it ... That was all it took ... The tone is great for an amp this size ... It says 75 watts on the back ... brotherdave mentioned in a different post that the wattage is closer to 30 ... It is just a simple practice amp that I can carry around when I need to ... I am VERY happy with my purchase.


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Post subject: Re: Looking for a good Tube Amp
Posted: Thu Sep 18, 2014 5:59 am
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If that fits your needs, go for it. :mrgreen:

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Post subject: Re: Looking for a good Tube Amp
Posted: Fri Sep 19, 2014 6:58 am
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Okay not to throw a brick thru the window on anyones opinion but I think why we may not see so many tube bass amps is the fact that you can get a really sweet tone out of one that doesn't have tubes. Forgive me if someone already mentioned this.
My main reason for saying this is from a performance standpoint as apposed to a practice at home standpoint.


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Post subject: Re: Looking for a good Tube Amp
Posted: Tue Oct 21, 2014 9:09 am
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stroker vance wrote:
Okay not to throw a brick thru the window on anyones opinion but I think why we may not see so many tube bass amps is the fact that you can get a really sweet tone out of one that doesn't have tubes. Forgive me if someone already mentioned this.
My main reason for saying this is from a performance standpoint as apposed to a practice at home standpoint.


You are correct. The modern solid state bass stuff got better. The Rumble 350 (V.2) now discontinued was one of the best sounding all solid state combos I ever demoed. Very, very impressive.

I've not tried the new Rumble V.3 stuff yet but is supposed to actually be better. The Fender RAD amp he found was a very highly rated 30 watt/10 inch combo at the time it was out. It had a guitar companion amp called the Fender JAM. The RAD specs were similar to the venerable Peavey Minx but I liked the RAD better. I had both and they both sounded OK but the RAD had better lows.


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Post subject: Re: Looking for a good Tube Amp
Posted: Tue Oct 28, 2014 7:15 pm
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Tubes do sound sweet, but they are heavy as all hell.

I moved recently, and had the movers put my tube heads in my car so they wouldn't get banged around in the truck- and they couldn't believe how heavy they were.

I have an Ampeg V4B tube bass head, and a Marshall dual super lead guitar tube head, and they feel like they are cast from solid lead.

Solid state can sound good, but you gotta choose wisely. I have an Ampeg B2R that is decent, and an old Peavey head that isn't too horrible either for backup to the tube rig. You definitely need a backup if you're going tube. You also need to keep spare tubes handy as well. It's also a good policy to keep the banging around to a minimum too. That's why I put the tube heads in my car- so I could insure they were babied and not banged around.

Tubes really are awesome though. It's all about the even order harmonics! :lol:


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Post subject: Re: Looking for a good Tube Amp
Posted: Wed Oct 29, 2014 12:32 am
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Southpaw1969 wrote:


Tubes really are awesome though. It's all about the even order harmonics! :lol:


I could not agree with you more completely. That is exactly IT. Tubes carry a heavy price and a heavy burden, HOWEVER no solid state or hybrid will ever sound as good. Tube bass amps have always been and will always be around because NO SOLID STATE BASS AMP NOR HYBRID SOUNDS LIKE AN ALL TUBE BASS TUBE AMP.

Playing solid state or hybrid as I am forced to do says one of the following:
1. I'm too cheap to buy a tube head.
2. I'm too old to move a tube head.
3. I don't have tech to maintain a tube head.
4. I looked at watts per dollar and on PAPER it seemed like a good idea at the time.

Tube head sound so much better it is like being on another planet. However, some of us are in category 2 and 3. I can swap a preamp tube out in a hybrid, but after that I'm clueless and on top of that I'm old and I'm frankly tired of moving heavy all tube gear. If you aren't more tone to you! I think the high powered hybrids like the discontinued Fender Bassman 1200 watt hybrid are a good compromise, but a compromise none the less.

There is no substitute for an all tube bass head. None.

So, do I get by? Yes. Am I totally happy about it? I just do the best I can and right now a hybrid is a reasonable compromise. But would I rather play all tube? Yes!

I really need rotator cuff surgery. That is so not happening. My last surgery was the last I hope. I was out of work nearly 14 weeks. For a workaholic that was HELL enough.


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