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Post subject: Epoxy fill new FENDER AMERICAN VINTAGE '64 JAZZ fretboard??
Posted: Sat Mar 30, 2013 5:52 pm
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Hello Everyone,

I just recently purchase a brand new FENDER AMERICAN VINTAGE '64 JAZZ BASS, Model #: 0191020802, Serial #: V131****. I just noticed what looks like a Epoxy fill on part of the fretboard between the 2 last frets. Is this common practice? I have purchased many Fender Bass guitars before, and I have never seen this done before. Maybe my bass was made on a friday at beer-thirty, or is this just normal? If it is normal it seems a like shoddy workmanship. I've never even seen this kind of thing on a Chinese made Squier.

Thanks for any help you can provide…See attached picture...

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Last edited by PBASSTONE on Sat Mar 30, 2013 10:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post subject: Re: Epoxy fill new FENDER AMERICAN VINTAGE '64 JAZZ fretboar
Posted: Sat Mar 30, 2013 8:18 pm
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Hmmm??? :? the only time I've seen epoxy applied,.. it was on Rosewood or Pau Ferro fretless fretboards.... :(


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Post subject: Re: Epoxy fill new FENDER AMERICAN VINTAGE '64 JAZZ fretboar
Posted: Sun Mar 31, 2013 10:17 am
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This one needs to go back to the Mothership. Exchange it right away.


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Post subject: Re: Epoxy fill new FENDER AMERICAN VINTAGE '64 JAZZ fretboar
Posted: Sun Mar 31, 2013 2:10 pm
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Quote: "looks like a Epoxy fill" "-"Thanks for any help you can provide…See attached picture..."



Hi PBASSTONE!

I magnified the photo you posted by several 100% to take the best look I could at the problem.

The defect appears as best I can appraise by photo to be lying on top of a natural and continuous wood grain, rather than filling in an actual hole.

So with the greatest respect, from my perspective, you seem to have made an assumption regarding what the manner of the defect is quite specifically, and projected that thought towards the Instrument and how it's made. But I think you are completely mistaken. To my eye, it merely looks as if a flick of basecoat colour has gotten onto the fretboard by mistake.

My hunch would be that it will probably come off if you scratch it off, but personally I would leave it as when you oil the neck and play the Instrument, over time it will probably harmlessly come off all by itself, simply lifted by the effect of oil, moisture (sweat) and the natural expansion and contraction of the fretboard from underneath, and the action of friction from your playing hand above. Whereas, you might create damage by deliberately scratching it off.

How could such a thing happen? Well the body is painted separately from the neck, so it's hardly likely to be a spot form there, although that was the first thought that crossed my mind.




What I actually believe it to be is a base coat colour gunspit from the spraygun, when the headstock was sprayed with the matching body colour.

What can happen with a spraygun, is that there can sometimes be a tiny amount of leakage from between what is known as the "fluid tip" and the "needle" of the spraygun which in reality should completely close off when the gun is hung up between jobs.

It sometimes doesn't and as the spraygun is under pressure from the paint there is this tiny leak. This can happen both with small production gravity fed spray guns, as would be used in a Guitar Factory, and with high production On Demand paint supply systems used in Bigger Factories. Essentially the spray gun requires a little maintenance or more regular cleaning.

Because the same thing can happen if the spraygun operator simply does not clean the fluid tip of his spray gun, between using it on different jobs. But in both cases, a blob will often form on the tip of the spraygun, and when the trigger is pulled which engages the air flow, atomising the paint into a fine spray, the blob has to land somewhere.




Usually because of this problem, an experienced and wise paint sprayer, will point the spraygun away from the job he wants to spray and spray a little paint to clear the gun, immediately before he starts to spray the job, so any such blobs land where they can do no harm.

Normally, one would expect the part of the fretboard not being sprayed to be completely masked off, so that no unwanted spray falls where it is not wanted. But sometimes products are partly masked near the part to be sprayed if its a small area, or equally there could be a tear in the masking, and that's how such things as these blobs happen. It's perfectly possible such a blob of paint simply fell onto the waiting or finished product, whilst another job was being processed, during manufacturing.

The other scenario I can imagine is if a paint touch up was required on the body somewhere, after the instrument was otherwise finished, but I don't think so. Regardless, however it happened, to me it looks like a blob of blue basecoat material hit the fret board and ran a little encouraged by gravity, which is why you have a thinner part of the defect above and the main blob built up as the paint hardened as it ran, towards the bottom.

You will appreciate that Basecoat Colour on its own, looks different to what it will look like after a coat of clear gloss Lacquer is applied over it to give the hard glass like finish, and bring out the metallic sparkle. It is naturally duller. That's what it looks like to me.

I would ask yourself how you feel about the Instrument as a whole. And make any judgement now from a well balanced, holistic viewpoint that takes everything about the Instrument into consideration.

On a wider point, I think all players should take more time than they often do, looking hard and critically, fully trying Instruments, and examining everything about them, before they buy them.




PP


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Post subject: Re: Epoxy fill new FENDER AMERICAN VINTAGE '64 JAZZ fretboar
Posted: Sun Mar 31, 2013 3:51 pm
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I think Brother Dave and the Pink Panther may both have this one nailed.

You bought a bass with a $2699.99 MSRP, so it should be right. Me? I would take it or send it back, whichever way you purchased it, and get one where you don't need to correct a factory issue.

PP makes a good point. Because of what I do with Fender basses, I buy a lot unseen. But if you are going to buy a new bass, hold it, feel it, play it and look it over for any flaws before you pay for it and drive away. Even then you might overlook something, but in this day and age, buying a new bass sight unseen is rarely needed. Big box stores will almost always match online pricing and will, typically if asked, bring in a bass not in stock, for a small deposit.

Okay, I am off my soapbox. I would return or exchange it.

Steve

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Post subject: Re: Epoxy fill new FENDER AMERICAN VINTAGE '64 JAZZ fretboar
Posted: Sun Mar 31, 2013 4:10 pm
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affprod wrote:
...
You bought a bass with a $2699.99 MSRP, so it should be right. Me? I would take it or send it back, whichever way you purchased it, and get one where you don't need to correct a factory issue...

Steve


End of story.

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Post subject: Re: Epoxy fill new FENDER AMERICAN VINTAGE '64 JAZZ fretboar
Posted: Mon Apr 01, 2013 5:03 am
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Quote: "End of story."



Just one further point. :wink:

If look very carefully just a little lower than the defect that was of concern.

You will see that there is also a similar blob of what looks to be hardened clear coat, with a number of very tiny blobs just nearby.

This would strongly suggest to me that additional clearcoat drop was also created very much in the manner as described above for the basecoat blob, as the paint process is a two stage basecoat and clearcoat.

You thus have droplets of both types of paint, created in very much a similar way. Factory processes are designed so that operators ensure the same operation is done over and over again in exactly the same manner. So whatever the specific reason for the fault, it actually occurred repeated during both processes.

Probably by the same person, maintaining and using his spraygun. In exactly the same manner.



You might need to magnify this, but its written by Devilbiss, Market Leading Manufacturers of SprayGuns.

Not only does it confirm the diagnosis above, but also explains the solutions for all Spraygun faults.

http://www.devilbisseu.com/uploads/troubleshooting.jpg



For those interested. This will show what an air cap, fluid tip and needle is. It is the most "sensitive" and easily damaged part of a Spraygun.

http://english.finishingbrands.eu/Edito ... ravity.pdf




Lots of the typical problems that Guitar Manufacturers regularly have to deal with, like polishing out drops and splashes of clear coat on the surface of the finish, can be almost completely eliminated by the operators being allowed to have proper time to maintain and clean their gear between jobs, and the management ensuring they are paid for, and assiduously do that.

Sometimes it is the case that Manufacturers invest capital in the Original Equipment the operators uses, but fail to allow for the additional cost of spares that permit the equipment to be properly maintained over time.

The reason for me writing this, is that quite apart from the inconvenience to customers. Manufacturers could save time and money spent on costly re-work.

Simply by getting proper processes established and adhered to, by every operator.

Process Adherence is the key to consistently high quality.

It's a Management Issue.

"Kaizen!"





I know that many of you refinish and mod your Instruments.

Perhaps some of you use aerosol cans to re-spray or repair. These types of problem can be largely avoided if you clean the "working tip" of the can regularly, certainly between every stop and start, and begin spraying with the can "pointed away" from the job for a moment, to clear the tip of any material build up.

It's amazing the difference a proper technique, and cleaning routine can make to the quality of the paint job. I regularly get to visit lots of World Class Manufacturing Factories, and have also visited the Factories where they make the Spray Guns.

So I hope these thoughts will be helpfully stimulating both to Fender's Customers, and Fender Manufacturing itself.

After all, I could be the next person to buy one of the Products.




If you really think things through. You will see that for the Manufacturing Operators at Fender.

A body colour keyed headstock presents and requires a difference and break from what are overwhelmingly the normal processes the operators have to implement during a manufacturing day, representing a minority of their Production Schedule.

This is probably, the absolute root of the problem.




PP


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Post subject: Re: Epoxy fill new FENDER AMERICAN VINTAGE '64 JAZZ fretboar
Posted: Thu Apr 04, 2013 8:48 pm
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I'm wondering if repairs are made with a single air gun. Also- aren't the paint jobs automated and more than one and maybe several air nozzles used?


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Post subject: Re: Epoxy fill new FENDER AMERICAN VINTAGE '64 JAZZ fretboar
Posted: Thu Apr 04, 2013 11:46 pm
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Was the origional poster refering to the Blue paint blob or the dark discolouration from fret to fret that makes the fretboard seem to be sitting 1/4mm beneath the surface.

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Post subject: Re: Epoxy fill new FENDER AMERICAN VINTAGE '64 JAZZ fretboar
Posted: Fri Apr 05, 2013 11:28 am
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I would ask you to evaluate the whole instrument before you send it back for a small defect that may be able to be rectified with a little steel wool.

I respect the view that the bass should be right when paying $2699 or whatever you had to pay, but dark rosewood is getting harder to find and each instrument has is own voice.

If this bass is a killer instrument I would have the shop that sold it to you have a go at cleaning off the fingerboard.

Some of us can bond pretty tight with a given bass.

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Post subject: Re: Epoxy fill new FENDER AMERICAN VINTAGE '64 JAZZ fretboar
Posted: Fri Apr 05, 2013 2:43 pm
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Quote: "I'm wondering if repairs are made with a single air gun. Also- aren't the paint jobs automated and more than one and maybe several air nozzles used?"



Yes, one gun, whether a repair or an original finish, but depending on the type of finish involved, several guns might be used, but only one at a time, each holding different shades to be built up and also to apply various types of paint, i.e. colour and lacquer.

If you want the highest quality paint finish, the best way to achieve this is by hand spraying. This is because no machine can replicate the sensitivity and guiding effect needed from the human eye. I have a saying, to workers in this field "let your eyes do the work" and there's more truth to this than can be easily imagined.

If you don't believe this, perhaps informing you that I am currently involved with an investment of £750,000,000 involving the installation of 1,000 Fully Automated Robots, which will work day and night without resting, and deliver very high quality extremely consistently, will help convince you when I say a hand sprayed paint job by an experienced worker, will always deliver the ultimate finish, because of power of the human eye.

As regards to using several air nozzles, some Robots use several, but purely for coverage per stroke of the machine and usually on a reciprocating basis. Other robots fling the paint off from incredibly high speed turbines which are surrounded by many air nozzles. These look a bit like a cows udder and the air nozzle nipples that surround the turbine, form a circular "air shaping ring "so that the paint flung from the turbine gives a completely even coat over the area it is applied, although this can be programmed to adjust itself where necessary.

Because a Guitar or Bass made from wood has so many different types of grain, shading is best done individually by human eye, so the paint application best compliments the singular wood gain of that Instrument. Also the many curves often require the Instrument to be turned whilst spraying, for evenness without excess or dry patches. This means for all practical purposes the best finish is always done by a human being.

If you think of the 360 degree way you can view Fenders on their website, and with your mouse at home, manipulate that to see the parts you want, I would expect the Hand Sprayer at Fender to work in a rather similar fashion, as they apply the Finish. Perhaps it will help if you can think of it like that.

Some of the Fenders I have seen recently, seem truly excellent in Finish.



PP


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ERV5E5uhLAM


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