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Post subject: Intonation Issues with 2012 American Fender Jazz Bass
Posted: Tue Mar 19, 2013 9:54 pm
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I recently picked up a used 2012 MIA Fender Jazz Bass American which I'm really digging, but I seem to be having some intonation issues. It's not something I'd expect from a bass in this price range, and I've owned many. The bass is having a hard time staying in tune, even after just 20 seconds of playing.

All the typical issues have been addressed so far. Yes I put new strings (2 sets to try, Rotos and D'Addarios), and I let them stretch out for a good time. Then adjusted the truss rod and bridge and intonated everything as it should be. I tightened the neck bolts, and and the strings have plenty of windings around the post and have as much downward angle as possible at the nut and at the bridge. I tightened the nuts on the tuners by hand (didn't want to crack the finish on the headstock).

It did come from the East Coast, and it's in California now. I've let it settle with the climate for about 5 days now.

The only mod I see is a graphite nut, not perfect, but seems good enough as it's cut in the right places and at the right height. Graphite should give plenty of lubrication.

Still having a hard time staying in tune. Just want to know if anyone else has this problem at all and how you're dealing with it. Nothing quite as disconcerting as an out of tune bass!

All thoughts are appreciated!


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Post subject: Re: Intonation Issues with 2012 American Fender Jazz Bass
Posted: Wed Mar 20, 2013 1:51 am
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I'm sure the set up is not right . Have some experience in set-up ? In truss rod adjustment ?
Good intonation need a very good Tuner


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Post subject: Re: Intonation Issues with 2012 American Fender Jazz Bass
Posted: Wed Mar 20, 2013 7:26 am
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Yes, I set it up correctly. I've owned scores of instruments, for the last 20 tears and am pretty experienced with setups. I've been using a TC polytune and for the $100 range, it's a good tuner. It's worked great for my other basses. I had a MIJ Geddy Lee, set it up myself, no prob. Same goes for my Stingray, Carvin, Yamaha, Lakland, Sadowsky, Roscoe Beck, MIA P Bass, etc.

Just wondering if any other 2012 users have had any issues.


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Post subject: Re: Intonation Issues with 2012 American Fender Jazz Bass
Posted: Wed Mar 20, 2013 12:03 pm
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Is it actually an intonation problem as per the title, or a tuning problem? Put another way, is it the tuning of an open string that's changing, or is it that the intonation up the neck is changing?

If its that the tuning is going off, its either a slippage with a part of the tuning mechanism (ie tuners, strings, bridge), or else a problem with the neck moving / changing tension. I'd setup the neck relief as per Fender specs here http://www.fender.com/en-GB/support/articles/bass-guitar-setup-guide/ and tune the bass. Next time the tuning goes off, check whether the neck relief has changed. You'll need to use a feeler guage for this.

If the neck relief has changed, you have your answer - the neck is shifting, and this could be due to environment, or even a dodgy truss rod.

If the neck relief stays the same but the strings are out of tune, you know you have a problem with the strings / tuners bridge. Could be strings stretching, or slipping on the tuners, or possibly something at the bridge end eg saddles shifting.

HTH


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Post subject: Re: Intonation Issues with 2012 American Fender Jazz Bass
Posted: Wed Mar 20, 2013 2:04 pm
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I have heard it said that, "the only stupid question is the one unasked." So I'm going to ask some seemingly really stupid questions that might help us figure out what is happening. Mickster2's post asked some of the same questions and he was 100% on the money to ask them. The advice he gave is sound.

By "intonation" do you mean it is slipping tuning so that when the strings are tuned open EADG with an electronic tuner and then after you've played a minute they all 4 slip out of tune going flat when checked open EADG tuning with the electronic tuner again?

Or are some going flat and some going sharp? Or are all 4 going sharp? Or is it unpredictable as to whether each string is going to go flat or sharp?

Or do you mean when you initially set it up tuned open EADG with the octave also set up to be in tune EADG and then after you play for a minute the open tuning is still in tune EADG but the intonation is off from EADG when fretted at the octave? Again, if this is the case is it all four strings and are they going flat or sharp at the octave or both?

Do all 4 strings seem to be de-tuning uniformly? The reason I ask that is because while it is rare for 1 tuner on such a new USA Jazz to slip noticeably, it is almost unheard of for all 4 to slip noticeably. That would be a real head shaker but I suppose anything is possible.

Based on the limited information provided in your initial post, the chief suspect is the non-original nut. Even with a graphite nut if the slots are cut too narrow for the string size, the nuts are finished roughly with any uneven edges or irregular/scalloped channels or if the slots have an off-axis channel orientation you can still get sudden pitch jumps because unequal tension builds up on one side of the nut or the other and this inequality equalizes to some extent during brief play. The more you play the more the tension equalizes. The more tension inequality on one side of the nut or the other then the more unstable the tuning appears to be. If this is the cause then the solution would be expanding or smoothing/polishing the nut slots depending on each individual slot's size or smoothness. The nut material matters less than having correctly oriented and correctly sized slots and also having uniform smoothness within the slots. I wouldn't discount the nut as the source of this issue merely because the nut is graphite. Sloppy nut slotting equals sloppy tuning stability no matter the nut material.

With the strings loosened, can you wiggle the nut around? If the nut itself as a component is ill-fitting to the instrument it will actually never be stable even with perfect slots because it is somewhat mobile.

Once you absolutely rule out nut slotting and nut fit issues as the cause I would suspect next a bridge stability problem and after that is ruled out suspect (gulp) neck stability.

Open string tuning stability issues with known good strings on an apparently sound instrument can only be four things no matter the model year, country of origin or even brand.
1. Tuners (highly unlikely that all 4 are uniformly flaky on a nearly new USA Jazz.)
2. Tension inequality due improper nut slot sizes, off-axis slot/channel orientation or rough/uneven slot/channel surfaces.
3. Bridge instability. Check that mounting screws are hand tight but not over-tight. Check that lateral adjustment screws are stable by carefully measuring barrel location relative to bridge base or by counting exposed threads. Check that elevation adjustments are stable in the same fashion. Flaky elevation and lateral screws can be stabilized a great deal by using a dab of clear nail polish on the exposed threads where the screws enter the barrels. The nail polish will snap off harmlessly when the screws are turned using normal torque with a screwdriver.
4. Neck instability, usually due improperly adjusted, abused or malfunctioning truss rod system components (cracked nut, stripped nut, stripped rod threads, broken or maxed out rod, etc.) Sometimes these issues are accompanied by rattles or buzzes and in some cases a loud pop is heard or a jerk is felt coming from the neck during play at the precise time that the instrument suddenly goes out of tune across all four strings. This is not suspected as you didn't mention having any problems setting it up or report any noises or other symptoms of neck stability issues. However as Mickster2 pointed out measuring relief with gauges will either eliminate or indicate a neck stability issue.

I would give the nut a thorough going over. I am hoping that is the issue as it is relatively easily and inexpensively corrected. Even very flaky bridge adjustment screws don't usually cause measurable de-tuning in 30 seconds to a minute.


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Post subject: Re: Intonation Issues with 2012 American Fender Jazz Bass
Posted: Wed Mar 20, 2013 2:43 pm
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Post subject: Re: Intonation Issues with 2012 American Fender Jazz Bass
Posted: Wed Mar 20, 2013 3:17 pm
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Tim , If the bass have the right scale with 12th fret and bridge and nut and the tuner machines are not defective, sorry but the set up is wrong . This is not a rocket science


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Post subject: Re: Intonation Issues with 2012 American Fender Jazz Bass
Posted: Wed Mar 20, 2013 6:28 pm
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Hopefully you changed the strings one at a time.(?) If not..you probably haven't hurt the bass...but it could need to settle more after so many string changes. Take a twig from a tree and bend it back and forward a few times. It weakens the twig. Removing all the strings at once is a bad habit.

Another thing...do you use light or extra light gauge/low tension string sets? If so, fine...but you need very low action or the strings will bend by the time you touch the frets...causing intonation problems.

1 more thing...never mod an American Fender.


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Post subject: Re: Intonation Issues with 2012 American Fender Jazz Bass
Posted: Wed Mar 20, 2013 7:04 pm
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stupid question #007---- did you tighten up the nut on each tuner on the headstock? Those are almost always loose on every stinking bass I've ever bought except for the odd Fender that they weren't loose on.


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Post subject: Re: Intonation Issues with 2012 American Fender Jazz Bass
Posted: Thu Mar 21, 2013 3:50 am
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stroker vance , Dalembic , these a realy stupid questions as Tim said he knew how to do bass tune-up.



It's a joke ; )


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Post subject: Re: Intonation Issues with 2012 American Fender Jazz Bass
Posted: Thu Mar 21, 2013 10:15 am
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okay but I still buy basses that have loose tuner nuts. I work on other guitars that aren't mine. They usually have loose tuner nuts and screws. I think it's a big "overlook" with many players. The guitars are usually players guitars I'm jamming with that always seem to be out of tune. I'm talking 6 string players. It's amazing how many old players I come across that do not know general guitar maintenance. The first thing I do when the guitar hits my bench is make sure all screws on the whole guitar are snug or tight. Another big "overlook" is strap button screws. I always glue mine in. That works. You can untighten them when needed. I don't use Gorilla glue- just regular wood glue- and not much- just on the thread recesses.
I'm not saying anyone is dumb or stupid- just maybe uninformed? Don't hate. :D


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Post subject: Re: Intonation Issues with 2012 American Fender Jazz Bass
Posted: Thu Mar 21, 2013 4:41 pm
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stratele52 wrote:
stroker vance , Dalembic , these a realy stupid questions as Tim said he knew how to do bass tune-up.



It's a joke ; )


You know you are right. He did say that.

However it doesn't hurt me to do a pre-flight checklist of sorts when doing a setup because I sometimes overlook something if I don't.

This also happened on Northwest Flight 255 out of Detroit and Delta 1141 out of Dallas. Those guys were "professionals" also and in both cases, EPIC FAIL.


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Post subject: Re: Intonation Issues with 2012 American Fender Jazz Bass
Posted: Fri Mar 22, 2013 7:22 am
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+1 Brotherdave

Or the strings do not fit well on the nut and they jam ? Some work on the nut needed ?


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Post subject: Re: Intonation Issues with 2012 American Fender Jazz Bass
Posted: Fri Mar 22, 2013 9:23 am
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stratele52 wrote:
+1 Brotherdave

Or the strings do not fit well on the nut and they jam ? Some work on the nut needed ?


That is really what I suspect which is why I went into so much detail on tension inequality on one side of the nut or the other. The nut itself might even be slightly mobile. I really think the aftermarket nut needs a thorough going over.


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Post subject: Re: Intonation Issues with 2012 American Fender Jazz Bass
Posted: Fri Mar 22, 2013 7:59 pm
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The nut is not glued ? it move ?


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