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Post subject: real or fake?
Posted: Mon Feb 11, 2013 3:02 pm
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I originally posted a topic "1963 Jazz bass with gold Hardware?"
I would like to extend a conversation that was originally about gold hardware and has become about the legitimacy of the claim that this is an original(except for the pickguard) 1963 Jazz.
The main question is about the placement of the holes for the thumb rest. It appears that they are located above the E string which seems inconsistent with the vintage. I figure many eyes can see more than just a few.
What do you think?

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Post subject: Re: real or fake?
Posted: Mon Feb 11, 2013 9:22 pm
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Oh what the hill-- I say it's not a real complete original parts 63 Jazz- where's the damper holes? Didn't they have that in 63? It just looks too clean- maybe a total refin- HS looks odd. Tuners and other gold hrdwr look too good and clean-- in the neck pocket has paint- about 10 other things I can talk about but what the heck-- inside the routes-- the bass looks more like a fake neck and 70's era body - or a refin 63 neck -- it's fishy to me. Case looks too good. So shoot me now I'm just the bass player.


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Post subject: Re: real or fake?
Posted: Mon Feb 11, 2013 10:09 pm
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I have read that in 1963 Fender replaced the below string mutes with a simpler all string mute glued to the inside of the bridge cover. The clean hardware could be consistent with the idea that this is a 'closet queen'. But that does not explain the thumb rest holes or possible paint in the neck pocket.


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Post subject: Re: real or fake?
Posted: Tue Feb 12, 2013 2:09 am
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Having already commented on the thumb rest holes in the original post (& I can now see the second hole from the original position - lots more pics thanks) I won't say any more about that, except that there have been other examples of 60's Fender basses where the thumb rest has been moved from the "factory"position to one above the E string. I myself have a 65 CAR P Bass (as it happens also with all original gold hardware) where this was done at some time. The only difference with mine is that the new position was outside of the pickguard, & has left a clear mark in the nitro finish.

The string mute arrangement was changed in 63, so no obvious problem there.

There are some questions about this guitar that cannot be answered from photographs e.g. some indication of paint where it would not normally be expected, the lovely birds eye neck (no problem with that but it would probably not have been taken from the normal neck stock - that's not unknown) looks very, very shiny, overall excellent condition (but then that's all consistant with the perfect condition of the case)

I would suggest that this bass could well have been produced / put together for a specific customer order, & not perhaps passed thorugh the normal production line, therefore odd / unusual features are possible, but this could only be verified imo by actually seeing the instrument dismantled "in the flesh".

An inconclusive conclusion I'm afraid.

Edit - as I said in the other thread ..... the pickguard is clearly not original.


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Post subject: Re: real or fake?
Posted: Tue Feb 12, 2013 6:02 am
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Thanks!

I can still only see one hole below the G string where the thumb rest should be.
The other unanswerable questions are if this bass was hardly played what happened to the original pick guard? The thumb rest could have been moved especially considering the replacement guard had the holes in the new position, but why bother putting new holes in a bass you are not playing? Also there is no thumb rest in any of the pics so wtf?
I will have the bass in hand for an inspection later this week, hopefully I can see more but I don't think I would feel comfortable buying it without a professional opinion. I may have to send her to Gruhn? Who else should I consult? Brother Dave is a lot closer to me than Gruhn.


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Post subject: Re: real or fake?
Posted: Tue Feb 12, 2013 6:25 am
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Quote:
I can still only see one hole below the G string where the thumb rest should be


There are a couple of pics that do appear to show the lower hole, but what concerns me is that the upper hole does look as though it has had a screw in it to secure the rest above the original pickguard, but the lower hole looks like it has been painted over?

This could be just the photos (but they all look the same) however, get the bass in your hand & it will be obvious I think.

Be very interested to hear the results of a close-up inspection.


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Post subject: Re: real or fake?
Posted: Tue Feb 12, 2013 8:03 am
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On my 76 P bass -- factory painted creme and faded to yellow- when I removed the p guard there was no fade (yellow) under the p guard. There was a distinct line around where the pickguard was and the creme color followed that line. . In the pic the fade almost looks airbrushed. I guess it could be a blurry pic? Same kind of idea under the bridge cover and in the neck pocket.

19 holes under the pickguard ?
saddles screws- aren't saddle screws gold also if the bridge and saddles are gold ?
what kind of screws are in the knobs ?
what do the pot codes say?
Why is the ground wire to the bridge pickup black?

I'm not sure what they did in 63 but the tuners with the tabs---- I've seen where Fender made little routes so the tuners would fit down flush on the back of the headstock- again not sure about 63.

Anyway I'm not saying it's a fake- there's curiosity invloved though.


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Post subject: Re: real or fake?
Posted: Tue Feb 12, 2013 10:32 am
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pot codes are 70-2125-0034 304-6340
I agree that an in hand inspection should reveal more. But I know very little about spotting a refinish.


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Post subject: Re: real or fake?
Posted: Tue Feb 12, 2013 6:59 pm
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didn't this Bass sell last week ........ :? Just saying,......... Why is there still interest it it ?
I mean it's a 1963 that we only have pictures to go by .......& there's a pretty good chance the body was repainted at some point in the 70's or early '80's,..... who knows as were talking about an instrument with 50 yrs of history.....


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Post subject: Re: real or fake?
Posted: Tue Feb 12, 2013 9:08 pm
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Quote:
didn't this Bass sell last week ........ Just saying,......... Why is there still interest it it ?
I mean it's a 1963 that we only have pictures to go by .......& there's a pretty good chance the body was repainted at some point in the 70's or early '80's,..... who knows as were talking about an instrument with 50 yrs of history.....


I'm just trying to learn how to spot what to look for in these old basses. I really appreciate the knowledge people have been sharing with me. If what we are discussing bothers you please just move to another topic.


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Post subject: Re: real or fake?
Posted: Tue Feb 12, 2013 9:53 pm
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moothra wrote:
I'm just trying to learn how to spot what to look for in these old basses. I really appreciate the knowledge people have been sharing with me. If what we are discussing bothers you please just move to another topic.

Hey Loose the attitude buddy, I'm just asking a curious question..... it's a public forum & no I won't move on to another topic.... looks like I touched a nerve..


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Post subject: Re: real or fake?
Posted: Wed Feb 13, 2013 2:58 am
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And back to the subject perhaps!

Pluses :-

All electrics / wiring looks legit (very difficult to spot original soldering from that redone a long time ago imo)
Case has gold hardware & is correct for 63.
The end of the truss rod appears to have worn gold plating showing.
The condition of the whole package looks to be consistant.
The wear on the bridge cover is consistant with a player who used mainly fingers between the bridge pu & cover, & anchored his thumb on the corner of the bridge cover itself.
The wear / "weathering" on the gold hardware is consistant throughout.
"Special" necks are not uncommon on what was almost certainly a special customer order.
Any more?

Minuses :-
The bridge adjustment screws should be gold plated.
Paint is some places where it would not be expected (but not others where you might expect to see paint after a refin)
The soldering looks to be a bit untidy for a factory job.
One of the original thumb rest body holes does not appear to have ever had a screw in it (the lower one)
Replaced "modern" pick guard resulting in additional fixing holes in the body.
The body wood by the truss rod adjuster does appear to have been disturbed (usual) but the body paint doesn't (very unusual)
The thumb rest has been moved at some time to be above the E string & over the pick guard.
Any more?

From the pics alone this looks to me like an old refin of an original gold plated supplied bass, but it is not possible to be certain without having the guitar taken apart in front of me.

Hope that this helps ...... at least a little bit!

Edit - the more I look at this, the more I am thinking refin. I would get somebody with real expert knowledge to appraise this bass carefully - worth paying for imo.


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Post subject: Re: real or fake?
Posted: Wed Feb 13, 2013 6:17 pm
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A 63 Fender neck pocket should be completely painted. This one is.

"Paint stick" marks or shadows didn't appear until as early as November 1964 or perhaps as late December of 1964. A paint stick mark would be evidence of a refinish on a 1963 model!

In 63 they were still putting small nails in areas that would be concealed after assembly such as under the pickguard, bridge and pickup cavities to stabilize the body as paint was sprayed on the back of the body while the body rested on a rotating paint wheel. There appears to be extra holes under the pickguard that may be nail holes but there are also extra screw holes from the original pickguard and I can't tell which it is. Often the nail holes are so small (1/16th inch or so in diameter) that they are hard to find and even harder to spot after buffing...but you usually can locate a few with the pickguard off if you look closely enough. I downloaded and enlarged the photos and still can't tell for sure.

The decal on the headstock is perfectly correct for a '63 and the headstock paint appears to match the body very well. Any decal of course can be faked by a highly skilled forger but I can't see anything on the neck that looks incorrect down to the neck date code stamping color, font and size. The neck dots are correct. I've enlarged the photos and looked very, very carefully comparing to photos of known genuine originals. If anything the neck's date stamping is too clear being one of the clearest and most carefully applied. Often they were uneven, smeared or smudged.

The pot codes on the ones I can read (6340) are Stackpole week 40 of 1963 pots and they all seem to match. That would have been the week of September 23rd though September 27, 1963.

The Circle-D ceramic disc cap is correct for 63/64 Jazzes.

I do not see 10 things wrong. I see very few!

First, I have some concerns about some of the wiring in the control cavity. I am not convinced the solder joints on the capacitor are both original because the insulating spaghetti appears too new and of the wrong texture. It could be, but I'm not convinced.

Second, the enigma of the missing finger rest holes that bothers the OP so much still bothers me a little. After giving it some thought it bothers me much less since after taking into consideration everything else seen with this instrument such as the upgraded gold plated hardware and the incredible wood in the neck, this obviously is not your run of the mill 1963 Jazz Bass.

I'm not sure about whether the set screws were gold plated or not in '63. The bridge cover would have hidden them anyway.

I've examined many '63's and this one has an exceptionally gorgeous neck akin to today's Custom Shop or Select model necks. A neck this special would most likely would have gone to someone Fender favored. The neck was finished and ready for painting in August of 63 but the pots weren't made until very late September. The soonest the pots could have gotten there would have been about October 1 through 4, 1963. They obviously held the neck aside waiting for a favored customer's order.

They would have been glad to accommodate a customer this favored by leaving the tug bar off at their request and even not drilling holes for the tug bar upon request. They may even have factory installed it for the customer where it is now, or it could have been done later such as when the replacement pickguard was added. I'm guessing later and not at the factory.

In my opinion when I consider everything else seen here, original paint, original pots, original cap, original headstock paint matching the body, original decal and no paint stick mark in the neck pocket that the neck and body are original to each other. Plus the condition of the case corresponds to the condition of the instrument.

In my estimation the tug bar was not factory drilled in the normal position because the customer specifically asked them to leave it off.

Even the ground strap running on the surface from the bridge to the bridge pickup cavity grounding plate looks absolutely correct for 1963.

As to the mystery of the original pickguard being gone, that is to some extent a third concern. It should be there. They would be pretty fragile now. They can crumble being removed or replaced if you aren't careful. Some of them have shrank and cracked around the screws also. However this particular instrument appears to have been more carefully stored than most, so the pickguard should have been in above average shape also.

I agree that the whole package almost looks TOO good, but I can't find fault for sure with anything but the cap lead insulating spaghetti. If this instrument is faked, the person who did it is a real artist. It would be nearly impossible to fake this thing to this level of originality 50 years after the fact. Refinish the body yes. It is possibly refinished, and the pickguard is non-original. The body may be non-original to the neck, but the body painting technique appears appropriate for 1963 as well.

If the finish is original then it is one of the best examples, other than the non-original pickguard, of a '63 Jazz I've seen in a long time. I'd absolutely look for an original '63 brown tortoise pickguard. It might cost 800 dollars or more, but it would be worth it in the long run. Then I'd be afraid to take it out of the house or move it around without a security detachment.


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Post subject: Re: real or fake?
Posted: Wed Feb 13, 2013 7:27 pm
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You gotta love brother dave!
I have a deal for the bass with a 2 week inspection. Which only gives the dealer more credibility in my opinion. Of course they could have been duped by the original owner's son who sold it to them, or perhaps like me simply want to believe it is all original and are letting that override their sensibility. On the 'too good to be true side' the sale price was $8,800 so they either know little about the market or needed a quick sale for some other reason. It is an obscene amount of money, and also a steal if the bass is right. I couldn't pass up the bass at that price if it is in fact correct. It should be here tomorrow. I will play it until I take my wife out to V day dinner and then send it directly to Gruhn for an appraisal because I simply can not afford to make a mistake here. The weird part is I am not a dealer. I will almost definitely devalue the bass by playing it no matter how careful I am but I don't really think I would sell it as I have been coveting a pre cbs jazz for many a year. So many thanks to all of you who have contributed your thoughts. I really do appreciate all of the opinions. I will of course keep you updated with my own thoughts and Gruhn's appraisal.


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Post subject: Re: real or fake?
Posted: Thu Feb 14, 2013 9:00 am
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There is a 66 Mary Kay Jazz for sale on ebay and the guy was nice enough to send me a picture of the bridge. It looks like for some reason the set screws were silver. Either that or both these basses have had them replaced. Weird that they would make everything else gold but theses screws.
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Edit. He says the screws are gold but the plating has worn off of the tops.


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