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Post subject: "Black Lable" MIM vs USA
Posted: Thu Oct 25, 2012 5:56 am
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Hello, I have a "98" MIM "Silver Lable" J-Bass....As the story goes, Mexico didn't have a cutter untill "99," therefore, any Black or Silver lable from 92-98, is really an American body (and, Neck) shipped to Mexico for assembly.

I sold my Neck--it was of superior quality--and, still have the body with a MM Fretless Neck on it now....so, can I claim my Body as a real USA one, or, is it really just a Mexican one---it is, very heavy. and of superior in quality.

Thanks, just curious, Billy3


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Post subject: Re: "Black Lable" MIM vs USA
Posted: Thu Oct 25, 2012 7:09 am
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Anything written in the neck pocket?


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Post subject: Re: "Black Lable" MIM vs USA
Posted: Thu Oct 25, 2012 2:10 pm
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It is true that prior to the installation of CNC machines in Ensenada the Mexican bodies were cut and the Mexican necks were cut and fretted in Corona using the same machines operated by the same workers as USA production. I would not actually say you have a USA body and neck or even that they are equivalent to a USA one other than the original CNC machine cuts. The CNC cuts are just one step in the manufacturing process. The truss rod system is different for example. The fret edges got extra attention on USA models too. To make the bodies and necks, usually blanks that were more appealing went to USA production until they switched to a completely different blanks entirely for MIM instruments. I'm not sure exactly when that blank switch took place either. Maybe someone else does. Mexican body blanks prior to that switch would logically seem have the potential to be superior to ones that came after, but that is merely potential and no assurance of a "better" body. In fact, some of the laminate blanks used after the switch are just as resonant as some of the solid alder ones used before the switch. While I'm amazed at that, it is true.

Body weight is not always a failsafe indicator of tonal quality in a body. All you can be 100% sure of is that it eliminates neck dive. There is no failsafe indicator of a quality instrument for me personally other than playing it and comparing it to others.

I'm not sure about the 99 date you stated either. I've never been able to find a reliable reference to exactly when the CNC machines went online in production at Ensenada for each individual model. It could be accurate but it would be very informative to see some sort of solid definitive reference. I suspect that it would have been a more gradual changeover than switching every model all at once on the same day or even in the same month. Since Fender sells far more guitars my guess would be that their plan was to get guitar cutting up and running smoothly before complicating the process by cutting basses, but that is just a guess. Maybe they went the other way and did basses first since they needed fewer of them. Maybe they flipped a switch one day and started cutting everything at Ensenada, but that seems less likely to me. The timeline for that is something that I may never find out for sure!


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Post subject: Re: "Black Lable" MIM vs USA
Posted: Wed Oct 31, 2012 6:14 pm
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Thank's for the reply:

I've read that article somewhere (On "Talk Bass Forum, I think)--(I just Googled--"Mystery of the Fender "Black Lable" MIM Bass) ---It said, Mexico didn't have a cutter from 92-98--It stated that regardless of the Lable, MIM bass's of that era had Bodies and Necks that were shipped from USA?

And, from what I've seen on Ebay, and having one myself--I would have to agree that from 92-98 MIM bass's do look to be superior in quality?

Most Mexican Bass's I've seen have a strange 1 in. round hole under the pickguard, and mine doesn't? It's 14 years Old and the (Neck, that I sold), and the Body I still have, looks new?

BTW: Part of this story is on this Forum, under: "1996 MIM, Original..."

It is an interesting story!
Thanks, Billy3


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Post subject: Re: "Black Lable" MIM vs USA
Posted: Sun Dec 02, 2012 3:25 pm
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Yes Billy it is an interesting story but THE WOOD IS NOT THE SAME QUALITY. The FINISHING NOT THE SAME EITHER. Just because it is on TALKBASS doesn't make it TRUE. I mean a real verifiable authoritative source, not some other forum hack.

Some of these early Ensenada instruments were not exactly THE FUNK MACHINE caliber. I would not say they were any better than 2004 or 06 or 08 or 2010.

The BLACK LABEL you speak of is THE FENDER TRADITIONAL SERIES which was an lower quality instrument than the Standard and about $75 dollars cheaper. The Traditional Series price wise was in between the Squier Series and the Standard.
There is less difference between a Squier and a Traditional Series than between a Traditional Series and a Fender Standard.

There is nothing "mysterious" about the Black Labels. At this time Fender Mexico was making three grades of instruments. Standard, Traditional Series and Squier Series. The economy then was almost as it is now. (Today we have Squier, MIM Standards, USA Specials instead.) The Squier Series were Fenders with Fender serials, not Squier serials. The were Fenders, but most people including even some dealers who should know better say they are Squiers.

It is confusing, but not mysterious. Mysterious is the disappearance of THE FUNK MACHINE. That is mysterious.


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Post subject: Re: "Black Lable" MIM vs USA
Posted: Wed Jan 02, 2013 8:08 am
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I wouldn't mind finding a black label Jazz neck and putting it on a JP90 body. I'm pretty sure it would fit. Just a fretless dream of mine.


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Post subject: Re: "Black Lable" MIM vs USA
Posted: Wed Jan 02, 2013 8:35 am
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Am I the only one who thinks the Funk Machine will turn up some day?


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Post subject: Re: "Black Lable" MIM vs USA
Posted: Thu Jan 03, 2013 9:40 am
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oxfan wrote:
Am I the only one who thinks the Funk Machine will turn up some day?


No you're not Oxfan,...no you're not....If the bass of Doom could turn up so can the funk Machine..... :)


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Post subject: Re: "Black Lable" MIM vs USA
Posted: Thu Jan 03, 2013 10:11 am
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Can you imagine? It would be revered. I'd pay to see it, just for what James Jamerson did that influenced me.


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Post subject: Re: "Black Lable" MIM vs USA
Posted: Thu Jan 03, 2013 10:50 am
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Yeah it would be pretty cool,Jamerson inspired so many..... I'd also love to get my mits on the bass of doom :)


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Post subject: Re: "Black Lable" MIM vs USA
Posted: Mon Jan 07, 2013 7:04 pm
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James Coderre wrote:
.....I'd also love to get my mits on the bass of doom :)


So would the Pastorius family.

I will never give up hope that the Funk Machine is out there intact somewhere but it is getting more and more doubtful. While there was no big reward on the B.O.D. there has been a well publicized reward posted for Jamerson's Funk Machine for over 2 decades.

Did you know that Jamerson's first electric bass was stolen also? It never turned up either. He bought the Funk Machine 62 Stock P-Bass to replace the stolen one which was a first-generation Fender P-Bass. Every Fender 4 string bass he ever owned was stolen from him.


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Post subject: Re: "Black Lable" MIM vs USA
Posted: Mon Jan 07, 2013 8:56 pm
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brotherdave wrote:
Did you know that Jamerson's first electric bass was stolen also? It never turned up either. He bought the Funk Machine 62 Stock P-Bass to replace the stolen one which was a first-generation Fender P-Bass. Every Fender 4 string bass he ever owned was stolen from him.


No I didn't know this dave.... I wonder if you ever has this bass knows of it's history?? Hey have you ever read this article about Robert Trujillo & the Bass of Doom......check it out:
http://www.fender.com/news/metallicas-t ... s-of-doom/


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Post subject: Re: "Black Lable" MIM vs USA
Posted: Thu Jan 10, 2013 10:20 pm
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Yes James I read it a while back. So far as I know RT still has it and plays it sometimes at concerts. I've either never heard or forgotten what he paid for it, but I suspect it was mega money.

The first electric bass stolen from James L. Jamerson in 1962 was a gift from fellow bassist Horace “Chili” Ruth who is considered responsible for electrifying Jamerson. It's name was "Black Beauty." It was of course black. I've heard it was a '56 and I've heard it was a '57. I don't know which is correct for sure. Jamerson might never have tried electric bass if Ruth hadn't gifted him one as his instrument of choice till then was his German upright which he bought while still a teenager in 1957.

Jamerson even used the upright on many early Motown recordings including "Heatwave," "Mickey's Monkey," "Jimmy Mack," "Where Did Our Love Go" and "My Guy" among others. There is no telling what the "Funk Machine" would be worth at auction since the German upright sold at auction for $197,500 US. The upright was in the possession of James Jamerson, Jr and he is seen playing it in the film "Standing In The Shadows Of Motown" shortly before he auctioned it off. Jamerson gave the upright to his son as soon as he found out the "Funk Machine" along with his 8 string Hagstrom and Fender V had been stolen.


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Post subject: Re: "Black Lable" MIM vs USA
Posted: Fri Jan 11, 2013 9:24 am
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Wow! thanks for the info Dave........... oddly enough I just bought Standing in the Shadows of Motown.. The Life & times of James Jamerson from Amazon .......I got it about 3 weeks ago along with R&B Bass Masters The Way We Play.....by Ed Friedland . I've yet to delve into them because I've been swamped with the holidays, work & the flu ........... I've always been a rock player since picking up the bass in 1978 ..but in recent years I've been more interested in knowing more about the original Masters like Duck Dunn, Bob Babbit, Ray Brown, Chuck Rainey, James Jamerson, Jerry Jemmont etc.....


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Post subject: Re: "Black Lable" MIM vs USA
Posted: Sun Jan 13, 2013 3:27 am
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Standing In The Shadows Of Motown will open your eyes to exactly what impact James Jamerson had on multiple generations of bass players. He inspired, and still inspires. Once you understand his style, practice his stuff long enough and you'll understand what I mean, you'll hear his lines and style in a multitude of players.

It's a great movie too, some may disagree but i liked it a lot, especially Joan Osbourne. :D


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