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Post subject: Re: Squier sound BEATS Geddy Lee Jazz bass
Posted: Fri Dec 07, 2012 3:24 pm
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BCbassman wrote:
Most Squire pickups are wound to be very hot. Kids like loud guitars and they usually want distortion of some kind.

I know I am generalizing here, but that is why the side by side comparison with your Geddy Lee Jazz may leave the Geddy Lee in the dust when you only judge by volume.

The GL bass probably has a more refined tone if you listen carefully.

I know volume is the big first impression when trying an instrument but a quality bass will usually track better across the whole playing spectrum. Try some runs on the GL compared to the Squire and you will prob. find areas of the Squire neck that don't fret as well as your GL. The Geddy Lee is probably a better playing bass.


BC, I would say you are most likely right on the windings. The Squier does sound hotter. And the ear perceives louder as better they say. I have tested both. Adjusting volumes to sound equal. Both played at what sounded like the same volume but very low. Just to try and really hear the quality of each and find out why that squier sounds so good. It still had a much better low-mid range kick in the face punch to it with a REALLY nice growl to it.
As far as feel and fretting on each...the squier is not even in the same stadium in that game! It plays and feels light years better. The Geddy is a much better playing bass, your right.

While the Geddy has a unique bright (and very cool) sounding tone to it, there is an important section of the low-mid section just not there. I could EQ but find the squier's sound more like a Jazz bass should without that EQing. Just picked up a '62 Reissue JB and while that has more kick/punch in that range, it too does not sound as good as the old $100.00 Squier! This great sounding Squier I own plays/feels worse than any other Squier I have tried/owned. Sound though is another story. I have recently taken out the pickups and electronics to see if they are something special. Pots look smaller than other pots I have seen and I am no expert in identifying pickups anyway so who was I kidding. I think I was expecting "Lindy Fralins" to be stamped on them somewhere!

Thanks for your input BC,

Jo


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Post subject: Re: Squier sound BEATS Geddy Lee Jazz bass
Posted: Sat Dec 15, 2012 5:38 pm
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I, too, own an Affinity Jazz bass. An '08 model

Definitely has a lot of low end punch. Enough that I have to back off the bass on my amp, otherwise it is positively boomy.

The stock pots in mine were, before I replaced them, Alpha 500k mini-pots. They are quite small.

Since I bought it used, they were badly worn anyway.
I replaced them with 250k CTS pots and a .047 tone cap.

I love the sound of it, but it is not the best playing bass I have ever had, that much is true. The better Squiers, mainline Fenders, and certainly signature series models likely put it to shame playability wise, but there is just something about the stock pickups I really like.


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Post subject: Re: Squier sound BEATS Geddy Lee Jazz bass
Posted: Sat Dec 15, 2012 11:51 pm
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Well thanks FJ72, I thought I was going slightly nuts there. It just does have a certain killer tone I do not hear from my '62 reissue jazz,Jaco signature jazz,MIM fretless jazz, Geddy Lee signature, Squier Vintage Modified 70's reissue or Squier VM fretless Jazz.

To me, it sounds like a bass should sound: Clear, defined, articulate, growly with a stadium filling low. I recently recorded with it,as well as 2 of my other higher end basses and that squier killed in the mix over the other too.

I am considering swapping pickups and electronics to see if that great tone would transfer to another axe. I might have fit problems, at least with the PUPs.

I will post the results when my schedule frees up a bit and I can put on my experiment hat!

Jo


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Post subject: Re: Squier sound BEATS Geddy Lee Jazz bass
Posted: Sun Dec 16, 2012 11:37 am
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There definitely seems to be something about the Affinity series pickups that a lot of people like. I've seen plenty of people also praise the Affinity strat pickups, and I own one of those too, also an '08. I bought them at completely different times and place, but happened to end up with both from the same year.

They were very harsh with 500k pots, way too shrill and bright, but once I switched over to 250k pots with a .047 tone cap, they settled right down to an almost vintage sound. I really love the sound of that guitar too, and likely will not replace the pickups unless they actually fail.


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Post subject: Re: Squier sound BEATS Geddy Lee Jazz bass
Posted: Mon Dec 17, 2012 10:26 pm
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Wow that is weird, I have an Affinity Strat also! It sounds suprisingly good for a Squier.
I will consider the pots change, thanks.

Also tried to put the Squier pups in an 62 reissue(MIJ) but they did not fit. Wound up breaking the windings at the solder joints. UHG.
Still might try one of my others that might need a pickup face lift!


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Post subject: Re: Squier sound BEATS Geddy Lee Jazz bass
Posted: Tue Dec 18, 2012 12:55 am
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So far as your Geddy is concerned, a full review by someone who knows how to check the winding value of the pickups, the solder joints, the tone cap and even jack contacts is in order to make sure it is up to full potential.

BC is correct as usual. Squier bass pickups are more often than not overwound to have a higher volume output. In my experience loudness is the only plus to overwinding. It does also mask the brittleness and distortion of a cheap poly Chicket tone cap. One exception to overwound pickups I found in the Squier line was the Squier passive fretless Jazz which had full range pickups but sounded weak in output volume next to about any other Squier or modern Fender. Squier has since added a preamp to this model but left the full range pickups in it. The volume difference between a vintage wind and a modern wind is quite striking, but volume isn't everything in a passive bass signal. Overwinding is a quantity of volume over a quality of fidelity decision.

Here are some of the negatives to overwinding.
1. Overwound pickups will not have a full tonal range as overwinding kills upper mids, which bassists may think of the highs or treble in the instrument's voicing. Some players such as beginners looking to hide lack of skill in stage wash, reggae players looking for the lushest boom possible or skilled pick players looking to diminish pick clicking will all favor a bass heavy tone. They will benefit from overwound pickups more than someone who is more upper mid conscious and wants to be more up front in the mix such as a fusion style player. It is harder to cut through the mix for a solo with overwound pickups and takes way more watts to do so.
2. The tone control has little impact because the more overwound a pickup the less upper mids are generated in the tone. Overwind enough and there frankly isn't much treble left to roll off in a passive treble bleed tone circuit no matter what value or type tone cap you use.
3. Overwound pickups are prone to sounding more boomy/muddy and far less organic/natural. "Musical" is not a term I associate with an overwound pickup. Even single coil pickups like a classic Jazz Bass pickup, normally the most touch responsive and airy design ever, lose every bit of the touch responsiveness and natural air in their inherent tone when severely overwound.
4. As little as the resonance and resulting overtones of tonewoods contribute with full range pickups, they just don't seem to contribute much of anything at all with overwound pickups. Tonewood quality matters so little with severely overwound pickups that they might as well be mounted on a plywood board or a Steinberger type plank body with a fiberglass neck and Formica fretboard.

Fender bass pickup winding specs changed at least every few years and sometimes annually. It was almost as if they were hunting, and I think during the Leo Fender era they probably were as windings increased and decreased. 1962 seems to be the magic year for the best full range fidelity in Fender bass pickups. The Original Vintage set in both P & J variety will be pretty much the 62 stock wind or pretty close to it. I personally consider the 62 sets in both the P & J designs the benchmark for full range P & J pickups, meaning they are not very LOUD but they have about the widest and flattest frequency response when compared to any other year. These pickups make for very versatile and multidimensional instruments. Full range pickups give the instrument far more tonal options than just a one dimensional bass loaded thump with no upper mids in the tone. The Fender basses of the CBS era became progressively more one dimensional as overwinding seemed to increase periodically.

In my opinion, a real Jazz Bass or first generation P-Bass (single coil 51 through 56 P-Bass and Telecaster Bass) tone shouldn't be a super loud bass heavy tone. However when you overwind the pups on a Jazz more and more and more as the years go by then that is what the Jazz eventually wound up sounding like. That is the same sound of most modern Squier P's and J's.

Overwinding made more sense in the 1970's because bass preamps, and in fact amps as a whole, were simply not as advanced or powerful back then as they are now. Nobody was using horns in their cabs for example, so they really didn't notice that the pickup wasn't really full range any more. Back then players were also not using effects, compression or emulation. Few were doing any direct recording unless you were at a major studio. You never saw a bassist using a pedal board back then either. Therefore back then overwinding was a little advantage for this year's model over a previous year's model. So when someone who owned an early 60's Jazz played a 75 Jazz they naturally thought, "wow that is way louder than mine so it must be better," or "Mine must be worn out," and so they traded. Then when they played with the new louder instrument in a live full band setting they discovered that loud isn't everything.

Overwinding is an old idea that makes far less sense today than it did in the 70's or even the 80's. In spite of the fact it is actually a tone killer, overwinding shows no signs of going away anytime soon.


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Post subject: Re: Squier sound BEATS Geddy Lee Jazz bass
Posted: Tue Dec 18, 2012 6:03 am
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Thanks. I 'm no expert with pickups, so that's good info. I do like the sound of my Squier, for now, so maybe my ears just favor that sound, but that does explain why it's so sensitive to becoming boomy/muddy if you overdo the bass side of the EQ.


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Post subject: Re: Squier sound BEATS Geddy Lee Jazz bass
Posted: Tue Jan 01, 2013 1:04 am
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If the neck on your Squier is what's killing your love, I'd replace it with another neck. Ebay or Warmouth or other such fun places could get you what you'd want.

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