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Post subject: Fender Jazz Bass - Body Materials
Posted: Sat Sep 01, 2012 11:46 am
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Are the bodies of painted Jazzes different from Sunburst models?

Recently I was at a Fender day in a local dealer. I was told that the painted Jazzes had Alder Bodies and the Sunburst Jazzes (where you can see the grain) have ash bodies.
I can't see the information on Fender.com and online dealer websites have conflicting information.
Can anyone give me a definitive answer?

Kenny


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Post subject: Re: Fender Jazz Bass - Body Materials
Posted: Sun Sep 02, 2012 2:52 am
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Fender specs for each Jazz Bass sold will come with that info.
Cannot imagine the "exact same model" of Jazz Bass having different woods.
Then, they would not be the same model, wood they, would they :lol: :lol:

Different models may have different woods.
So, check for one line of the Jazz Bass and compare equal models
with all the same except the finishes.
Tell us what you discover.
Thanks, Toppscore :)

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Post subject: Re: Fender Jazz Bass - Body Materials
Posted: Sun Sep 02, 2012 11:41 pm
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Except if you check the specs--some J Bass models do not say what wood they are made with...

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Post subject: Re: Fender Jazz Bass - Body Materials
Posted: Mon Sep 03, 2012 3:07 am
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zontar wrote:
Except if you check the specs--some J Bass models do not say what wood they are made with...



Those are the MDF Particle Board Basses.
The thicker, the better :lol: :lol: :lol:

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Post subject: Re: Fender Jazz Bass - Body Materials
Posted: Mon Sep 03, 2012 9:09 am
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alder and ash are the two woods Fender uses. Depending on models. Some Standard uses Ash - FSRs. Brotherdave might be able to break it down better.

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Post subject: Re: Fender Jazz Bass - Body Materials
Posted: Mon Sep 03, 2012 10:31 am
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Sorry. Carrying a sick particle board issue from
another thread. My bad :oops: Sick.

Were discussing particle board vs quality plywood in amps.

Here is two good toasts and cheers to Alder and Basswood and Ash and Swampwood.

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Post subject: Re: Fender Jazz Bass - Body Materials
Posted: Tue Sep 04, 2012 8:35 am
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There is no easy or short answer to that now, because these days it depends on the country of origin.

Until the past few years Fender's USA and Mexican basses were mostly alder with a far smaller number of ash models. Walnut and koa were also used in some USA limited run models to further complicate things. The ash ones were usually finished in Fender Blond or Natural and not in sunburst on a regular production USA model. However at one time it was possible to custom order an ash body on a custom color USA instrument during the old Pre-CBS and CBS days and you could also get that in sunburst if you paid the up-charges for both ash and custom color. The modern era Mexican ash instruments are so far as I know always Fender Special Runs (FSR).

Most sunburst instruments are alder but I can't say all of them are alder because there have been some sunburst ash USA made ones. Sunburst alder outnumbers sunburst ash by an overwhelming number.

Now the Mexican STANDARD series no longer has body wood stated on the spec sheets. Mexican Standards seem to be basswood now. That isn't a problem for me since I think basswood is a decent tone wood for bass bodies, especially when comparing a good example of basswood to a poor example of anything else. Not everyone is as fond of basswood as I am. Basswood is not as dense as alder so it certainly isn't as rugged, but a good piece of basswood sounds rich and resonant while being lighter than even swamp ash. So if you are the type of person who is always banging your bass into stuff you might want to avoid basswood. Many people trash basswood basses out of hand though without even trying one.

Mexican models will have wood specified on the ones using alder or ash since this is now considered an upgraded feature.

When alder was used on Mexican Fenders as the specified wood most of the MIM alder bodies were third rate blanks anyway, having been picked over at Corona first before the rejects got sent to Ensenada. That no longer is the case. If you wonder where the third rate alder blanks are going now that used to be shipped from Corona to Ensenada, see if you can figure it out! I think I know!

Actually during both Fullerton eras it was not uncommon to find that there was sunburst under another "original factory" finish color, especially this was true on custom color instruments. This happened so frequently that some counterfeiters will go to the trouble to duplicate sunburst under a custom color top coat.

Regarding Fender Japanese instruments, they can be alder, ash, basswood or agathis. The more expensive ones are usually ash or alder. I know absolutely nothing about Fender's Chinese outsourced stuff.

To me the species of body wood is of lesser importance than the quality of the particular body and neck blanks in one instrument compared to another instrument. There are many variables that can make one body blank and neck blank combo a disappointing dud while another pairing with exactly the same specs comes out a total gem. You can't go by looks, tone wood type or specs alone.

Even in the Squier Affinity line someone will find a gem and so totally freak out about it that you'll see a new member post in the forum raving about what a great instrument they found. These members signed up just to rave about their "find" and really have no idea how it could be so good even when compared to their existing Fender USA instruments. The forum has seen more than one of these posts and will see more. This is why I always say to play lots of the model you want to buy. Buy the best one you can find.


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Post subject: Re: Fender Jazz Bass - Body Materials
Posted: Tue Sep 04, 2012 9:34 am
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brotherdave wrote:
There is no easy or short answer to that now, because these days it depends on the country of origin.
Until the past few years Fender's USA and Mexican basses were mostly alder with a far smaller number of ash models. Walnut and koa were also used in some USA limited run models to further complicate things. The ash ones were usually finished in Fender Blond or Natural and not in sunburst on a regular production USA model. However at one time it was possible to custom order an ash body on a custom color USA instrument during the old Pre-CBS and CBS days and you could also get that in sunburst if you paid the up-charges for both ash and custom color. The modern era Mexican ash instruments are so far as I know always Fender Special Runs (FSR).
Most sunburst instruments are alder but I can't say all of them are alder because there have been some sunburst ash USA made ones. Sunburst alder outnumbers sunburst ash by an overwhelming number.
Now the Mexican STANDARD series no longer has body wood stated on the spec sheets. Mexican Standards seem to be basswood now. That isn't a problem for me since I think basswood is a decent tone wood for bass bodies, especially when comparing a good example of basswood to a poor example of anything else. Not everyone is as fond of basswood as I am. Basswood is not as dense as alder so it certainly isn't as rugged, but a good piece of basswood sounds rich and resonant while being lighter than even swamp ash. So if you are the type of person who is always banging your bass into stuff you might want to avoid basswood. Many people trash basswood basses out of hand though without even trying one.
Mexican models will have wood specified on the ones using alder or ash since this is now considered an upgraded feature.

When alder was used on Mexican Fenders as the specified wood most of the MIM alder bodies were third rate blanks anyway, having been picked over at Corona first before the rejects got sent to Ensenada. That no longer is the case. If you wonder where the third rate alder blanks are going now that used to be shipped from Corona to Ensenada, see if you can figure it out! I think I know!

Actually during both Fullerton eras it was not uncommon to find that there was sunburst under another "original factory" finish color, especially this was true on custom color instruments. This happened so frequently that some counterfeiters will go to the trouble to duplicate sunburst under a custom color top coat.
Regarding Fender Japanese instruments, they can be alder, ash, basswood or agathis. The more expensive ones are usually ash or alder. I know absolutely nothing about Fender's Chinese outsourced stuff.
To me the species of body wood is of lesser importance than the quality of the particular body and neck blanks in one instrument compared to another instrument. There are many variables that can make one body blank and neck blank combo a disappointing dud while another pairing with exactly the same specs comes out a total gem. You can't go by looks, tone wood type or specs alone.
Even in the Squier Affinity line someone will find a gem and so totally freak out about it that you'll see a new member post in the forum raving about what a great instrument they found. These members signed up just to rave about their "find" and really have no idea how it could be so good even when compared to their existing Fender USA instruments. The forum has seen more than one of these posts and will see more. This is why I always say to play lots of the model you want to buy. Buy the best one you can find.

==================================================

When alder was used on Mexican Fenders as the specified wood most of the MIM alder bodies were third rate blanks anyway, having been picked over at Corona first before the rejects got sent to Ensenada. That no longer is the case. If you wonder where the third rate alder blanks are going now that used to be shipped from Corona to Ensenada, see if you can figure it out! I think I know!

===================================================

Brother. Very good info. Thank you.

Big question for my curiosity. Not saying anything is right or wrong.
But, in the Big picture, if customers knew than MIM MIC MIK MIJ MII or any
other product besides MIA had "picked over" bad wood, 3rd rate wood, etc. . . . .
I truly believe "word & rumors" would spread fast. Competitors would use this inof against Fender products.




Then, if it is not Custom Shop, it is "picked-over" wood.

Then, Deluxe Standard Select Vintage Reissues Anniversary models will all have
various quality of wood.

Then if you can see the grain or burst, it is good wood . . . .
but if the guitar is painted, it is "picked-over" wood.

Brother, see where I am heading???

I say, all Fender wood is good. From MIKs to STARcasters to MIC MIM MIJ.
I say, Fender cannot afford to have a "picked-over" bad wood reputation,
anywhere in any plant in any country.

I say, Fender may pick special woods for the $2000(+) guitars, but customers
and competitors would expect that.

I say, Fender does not want an across-the-board mass recall or returns or bad wood
or wood that bleeds through finishes or is brittle or cracks easily or etc etc etc etc.

Brother, where did you get your info that Corona sends Mexico the rejected wood?
This subject is very important to me, personally.
So, I am asking for knowledge, not to disrespect you.
You are an admirable Fender Forum contributor.

But, I AM INTERESTED in this subject. Thanks for helping me better understand.
Toppscore 8)

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Post subject: Re: Fender Jazz Bass - Body Materials
Posted: Wed Sep 05, 2012 4:39 am
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Folks,

Thanks so much for the response - Brother Dave you are a legend on this forum.

The answer is to play as many as possible. I played a beautiful sunburst on the Fender day. ash body and although I would prefer a solid finish for the look of it I'm not sure I would feel the same excitement I got from the Sunburst.

Thanks for all your helpful comments - poor me, I'll just have to suffer hours and hours of trailing round shops playing bass, boo hoo. :lol: :lol:

Thanks


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Post subject: Re: Fender Jazz Bass - Body Materials
Posted: Wed Sep 05, 2012 6:28 am
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KennyMcA wrote:
Folks, Thanks so much for the response - Brother Dave you are a legend on this forum. The answer is to play as many as possible. I played a beautiful sunburst on the Fender day. ash body and although I would prefer a solid finish for the look of it I'm not sure I would feel the same excitement I got from the Sunburst. Thanks for all your helpful comments - poor me, I'll just have to suffer hours and hours of trailing round shops playing bass, boo hoo. :lol: :lol: Thanks


Yes. Good info.
I believe no matter the wood. the string, pickups, guitar controls,
pedals, amp speakers, amp controls, amp tubes, amp output transformer,
all contribute to differnet tones and sounds.
A great bass guitar with great wood may not sound half as good as a bad guitar
with bad wood but with good guitar playing, and better after guitar electronics.
What do you think? Toppscore :)

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Post subject: Re: Fender Jazz Bass - Body Materials
Posted: Wed Sep 05, 2012 6:29 am
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Toppscore wrote:
brotherdave wrote:
There is no easy or short answer to that now, because these days it depends on the country of origin.
Until the past few years Fender's USA and Mexican basses were mostly alder with a far smaller number of ash models. Walnut and koa were also used in some USA limited run models to further complicate things. The ash ones were usually finished in Fender Blond or Natural and not in sunburst on a regular production USA model. However at one time it was possible to custom order an ash body on a custom color USA instrument during the old Pre-CBS and CBS days and you could also get that in sunburst if you paid the up-charges for both ash and custom color. The modern era Mexican ash instruments are so far as I know always Fender Special Runs (FSR).
Most sunburst instruments are alder but I can't say all of them are alder because there have been some sunburst ash USA made ones. Sunburst alder outnumbers sunburst ash by an overwhelming number.
Now the Mexican STANDARD series no longer has body wood stated on the spec sheets. Mexican Standards seem to be basswood now. That isn't a problem for me since I think basswood is a decent tone wood for bass bodies, especially when comparing a good example of basswood to a poor example of anything else. Not everyone is as fond of basswood as I am. Basswood is not as dense as alder so it certainly isn't as rugged, but a good piece of basswood sounds rich and resonant while being lighter than even swamp ash. So if you are the type of person who is always banging your bass into stuff you might want to avoid basswood. Many people trash basswood basses out of hand though without even trying one.
Mexican models will have wood specified on the ones using alder or ash since this is now considered an upgraded feature.

When alder was used on Mexican Fenders as the specified wood most of the MIM alder bodies were third rate blanks anyway, having been picked over at Corona first before the rejects got sent to Ensenada. That no longer is the case. If you wonder where the third rate alder blanks are going now that used to be shipped from Corona to Ensenada, see if you can figure it out! I think I know!

Actually during both Fullerton eras it was not uncommon to find that there was sunburst under another "original factory" finish color, especially this was true on custom color instruments. This happened so frequently that some counterfeiters will go to the trouble to duplicate sunburst under a custom color top coat.
Regarding Fender Japanese instruments, they can be alder, ash, basswood or agathis. The more expensive ones are usually ash or alder. I know absolutely nothing about Fender's Chinese outsourced stuff.
To me the species of body wood is of lesser importance than the quality of the particular body and neck blanks in one instrument compared to another instrument. There are many variables that can make one body blank and neck blank combo a disappointing dud while another pairing with exactly the same specs comes out a total gem. You can't go by looks, tone wood type or specs alone.
Even in the Squier Affinity line someone will find a gem and so totally freak out about it that you'll see a new member post in the forum raving about what a great instrument they found. These members signed up just to rave about their "find" and really have no idea how it could be so good even when compared to their existing Fender USA instruments. The forum has seen more than one of these posts and will see more. This is why I always say to play lots of the model you want to buy. Buy the best one you can find.

==================================================

When alder was used on Mexican Fenders as the specified wood most of the MIM alder bodies were third rate blanks anyway, having been picked over at Corona first before the rejects got sent to Ensenada. That no longer is the case. If you wonder where the third rate alder blanks are going now that used to be shipped from Corona to Ensenada, see if you can figure it out! I think I know!

===================================================

Brother. Very good info. Thank you.

Big question for my curiosity. Not saying anything is right or wrong.
But, in the Big picture, if customers knew than MIM MIC MIK MIJ MII or any
other product besides MIA had "picked over" bad wood, 3rd rate wood, etc. . . . .
I truly believe "word & rumors" would spread fast. Competitors would use
this info against Fender products.




Then, if it is not Custom Shop, it is "picked-over" wood.

Then, Deluxe Standard Select Vintage Reissues Anniversary models will all have
various quality of wood.

Then if you can see the grain or burst, it is good wood . . . .
but if the guitar is painted, it is "picked-over" wood.

Brother, see where I am heading???

I say, all Fender wood is good. From MIKs to STARcasters to MIC MIM MIJ.
I say, Fender cannot afford to have a "picked-over" bad wood reputation,
anywhere in any plant in any country.

I say, Fender may pick special woods for the $2000(+) guitars, but customers
and competitors would expect that.

I say, Fender does not want an across-the-board mass recall or returns or bad wood
or wood that bleeds through finishes or is brittle or cracks easily or etc etc etc etc.

Brother, where did you get your info that Corona sends Mexico the rejected wood?
This subject is very important to me, personally.
So, I am asking for knowledge, not to disrespect you.
You are an admirable Fender Forum contributor.

But, I AM INTERESTED in this subject. Thanks for helping me better understand.
Toppscore 8)




Hi, Brother Dave.
Was hoping you would chime in on some of my questions.
Much appreciated. Thank you. Toppscore :)

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Last edited by Toppscore on Thu Sep 06, 2012 3:48 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Post subject: Re: Fender Jazz Bass - Body Materials
Posted: Thu Sep 06, 2012 1:57 am
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Absolutely the wood is graded by level of the instrument, even today. One should not expect random blank selection among price levels. They don't just go to the same pile and grab a blank for whatever they need to make. The wood is graded. Pay more and you will get better wood.

I had a link posted on my bass site to an online photo essay written by a Fender dealer of tours of both the Corona and Ensenada plants from the mid to late 90's, I frankly can not recall the exact year, which detailed the wood grading process and about every step of the manufacturing process at Corona which included plenty of detail on the wood grading process Fender was using at that time. It no doubt has changed significantly since. I know it changed by 2000 in fact.

I just checked and the link to that 90's photo essay is now dead or I would post it here, so now have to get it off my site. Sort of glad this topic came up otherwise I wouldn't know about the dead link.

According to this essay back then wood blanks arrived at Corona and once aged the Custom Shop had first choice. Usually then the Custom Shop pulled their own blanks. These were said to be aged further in the Custom Shop. Next best blanks went to USA production for Deluxe Series and then the next select blanks after that to Standards. At that time the remaining blanks were destined for finishing and assembly in Ensenada. There were photos of the wood on pallets aging, and also actually photos of someone grading and sorting another pallet into various stacks for different grades of instruments with one stack said to be for Mexican production.

Based on an entirely separate second dealer Corona plant photo essay link I also have posted from 2001 which is still online today at: http://www.guitarstop.com/tour/guitar.htm, at some point prior to this tour Fender started ordering lesser quality blanks specifically for at least some, if not in fact for all, of the Ensenada instruments. Another dealer tour essay from 2000 at: http://www.nymphusa.com/tele/FactoryTourE.asp also mentions these Ensenada-use-only laminated blanks.

These laminated blanks used at Ensenada were very different from the USA blanks because they are laminated with a one piece alder tops and also differed in that the laminated blanks had a pre-beveled shape on one side (the neck side) so they were not totally rectangular like the USA blanks. Before they started using these partially pre-shaped laminated blanks Ensenada bodies were made from solid alder blanks coming from the same shipments as the USA production at Ensenada according to the previous 90's photo essay. It would make sense to use these for any sort of transparent or translucent finish but I strongly suspect some of the non-laminated blanks were probably also sent to Ensenada after CNC work.

For anyone who doesn't know it, guitar bodies are not one piece of wood. Body blanks are made by a contractor who glues multiple pieces of wood together to attain the proper dimensions per order specifications and ships them to Fender Corona on a pallet. Neck blanks are of course one piece, but quality of grain, density and color can vary a lot. The number of pieces used to make a body blank can vary, but a body blank made out of fewer pieces is far more desirable due resonance and other favorable tonal characteristics and therefore is considered "better." How a body blank looks beauty wise has less to do with how it is going to sound than the number of pieces that were glued together to make it does. The fewer pieces, the better as a general rule.

Usually but not always ash body blanks will ideally be 2 piece blanks at the most and alder 3 piece blanks at the most, but the truth is that blanks arrived with more pieces in the blank than these ideal numbers and these went to Ensenada at one time. They were not defective, just not considered to be as choice.

In the 2001 photo essay the laminated Ensenada alder body blanks appear to mostly have at least five pieces of alder with the laminate layer glued on top, but a few of these in the photos seem to have four pieces. Add in the laminate layers and the result is actually two additional pieces. So now we are talking about a 6 piece body at best.

Even after cutting a body or neck that looked fine as a blank they sometimes come out less than great and these are discarded. This is true for all Fender badged instruments. None of them are going to fall apart on you. Sometimes the wood density or moisture content is wrong and other times there might have been a hidden defect in the blank that only shows up once they cut it. Whenever one comes out less than ideal these would not pass inspection and would not go any further in the process.

Visible imperfections and grain mismatch often dictates not only what level of instrument it will be used to make but also what finish would be more suitable for it. If you have stripped a bass with an opaque finish with plans to oil it or refinish it in a natural finish then you may know already what I'm talking about here because it is a crap shoot. An opaque finished instrument that is stripped and refinished to natural hardly ever looks as good wood-wise as one that started out as a factory natural finish because that body was graded as worthy of a natural finish in the first place while the one that got the opaque finish may not have been pretty enough for a natural finish.

Prior to switching to the laminated tops, once they had pulled the USA caliber wood blanks I'm certain the rest went to Ensenada production after CNC milling at Corona. Yes Fender cut the bodies and necks for Ensenada production in Corona back then as there were no CNC machines at Ensenada for two reasons. 1. No room. 2. They cost a fortune now, but cost even more back then.

After the February 1994 fire at the original Fender Ensenada facility which started in a paint booth totally destroyed the entire original Fender Ensenada plant, Fender moved Mexico manufacturing into the current far more spacious facility. Then much later Fender installed CNC machines at Ensensada so they could do the entire manufacturing process from raw wood blanks to a finished guitar.

There was no need to ship blanks to Ensenada prior to that because they didn't have the machinery to mill it. Until the CNC machines arrived at Ensenada, Corona was still cutting bodies and cutting and fretting necks for Ensenada production. I'm not really certain what year the CNC machines were installed at Ensenada but it is a fairly recent development. If anyone knows that for sure I'd like to know.

Once Ensenada got their own CNC machines they could start receiving wood blanks bypassing Corona and we get basswood. I like the tone of a nice piece of basswood just fine. The only drawbacks are that it is lighter so you can wind up with balance issues and it is softer so you will want to keep check on screw tightness. Otherwise, I like it.


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Post subject: Re: Fender Jazz Bass - Body Materials
Posted: Thu Sep 06, 2012 2:38 am
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Fender isn't exactly specifying body wood on the American Standards..any more. Or, maybe they just drastically changed their advertising. Is alder becoming scarce?

Basswood is a decent tone wood imo. The Squier Classic Vibes sound great. Could use better tuners, though.


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Post subject: Re: Fender Jazz Bass - Body Materials
Posted: Thu Sep 06, 2012 4:27 am
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Wow!!!
Brother Dave. Thanks so much. Learned quite a bit.
Read both links word for word. Good stuff.

Skimmed over your website. Very interesting.
How many bass guitar reviews have you done? Just a few?

I was specifically looking for review on a 1998 Fender Deluxe American Jazz V
Did you do one on this bass?
I believe is just saw a few reviews.

Since this is a Fender Forum, I am really interested if Fender offers amps
that compete directly with the modeling features of the Line-6 Amps?

Are all of the Line-6 modeling amps solid state?
Do or can tube amps provide the modeling that Line-6 offers?
Or, is solid state the only option for modeling amps.

Thanks for your response(s). Toppscore 8)

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Post subject: Re: Fender Jazz Bass - Body Materials
Posted: Thu Sep 06, 2012 6:22 am
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Excellent information here and the links to the factory tour are also great.
This clears up many misconceptions I have seen stated on other boards.
Thank you!


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