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Post subject: 60's Jazz finish
Posted: Sun Apr 01, 2012 7:45 am
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Before I bought my 60s Jazz reissue the salesman at the local store where I bought it told me that it had a nitro finish but over on TB I just read a post that said it is poly and only the roadworn series is nitro. Can't find anything on this site that clarifies. Anyone here know? Brotherdave? Anyone?

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Post subject: Re: 60's Jazz finish
Posted: Sun Apr 01, 2012 7:52 am
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OK. I finally found the answer in the product support downloads section. It is polyester on the body and polyurethane on the neck. I have always hated chemistry so how is polyester different than polyurethane?

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"the only people for me are the mad ones, the ones who are mad to live, mad to talk, mad to be saved, desirous of everything at the same time, the ones that never yawn or say a commonplace thing, but burn, burn, burn"
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Post subject: Re: 60's Jazz finish
Posted: Sun Apr 01, 2012 7:59 am
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Which "60s" jazz ri are you talking about?? There are three models, the American 62 Jazz RI which is nitro, the Mexican Classic Series 60s Jazz which is poly and the Mexican Road Worn Jazz which is nitro.

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Post subject: Re: 60's Jazz finish
Posted: Sun Apr 01, 2012 8:17 am
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MIM Classic.

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Post subject: Re: 60's Jazz finish
Posted: Sun Apr 01, 2012 1:27 pm
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Fender and similar solid body USA guitars used (and still use) the same paints in the same colors used in the automotive market of the day. The changes in paint types used on guitars is directly linked to paint formula changes in paints for automobile mass production.

Polyester paint is about as airtight a finish as you are likely to get. Poly has benefits such as easy care and durability. Poly is more resistant to cracking (but will still crack in extreme temperature swings when applied to wood), poly is less photo-reactive and poly is practically immune to the finish checking issue very common on vintage instruments.

Nitrocellulose lacquer on the other hand is a breathable more organic paint. The chief benefit of nitro in instrument application is that it will allow trace moisture in body and neck wood to continue evaporating from the wood through the finish.

One catch with nitro finishes from 1964 on is that the nitro outer coats are almost always applied over a poly (plastic) base primer sealer coat. This primer/sealer product was called Fullerplast in 1964. The Fuller part of the name didn't relate to Fullerton, but was a hybrid product name for a product from Fuller O'Brien paint company that dried in hours to a smooth plasticized finish. Once the Fullerplast sealer/primer was sprayed on it didn't matter that the outer color layer was nitro because the body was already sealed tighter than King Tut's sarcophagus. Fender Fullerton was looking for ways to speed production in 1964 prior to the sale to CBS and Fullerplast cut many hours of drying time. Anyone who has ever tried to refinish a Fender with Fullerplast on it can testify to how easily the nitro outer color comes off but how tough it is to get the primer sealer coat off. Often sanding it off is the only way.

One of the reasons Pre-CBS instruments are so highly prized by players is because the wood has spent 50 or 60 years continuing to dry right through all layers of the nitro paint and sealer.

The fact that the porous quality of nitro is a two edged sword is often overlooked. If moisture can get out, then it also can get in. So storing an all nitro finished instrument in overly humid conditions can theoretically cause it to actually absorb moisture or at least slow the evaporation of internal moisture so much that it doesn't make any difference. Nitro being porous also makes the finish susceptible to staining from perspiration or from usually innocuous products such as hand lotion, sunscreen or even beer.

This is also why nitro painted vehicles are more susceptible to rust and people waxed their cars once a month in the 50's and 60's. Water could get to the sheet metal right through neglected nitro automotive paints leading to rust. A perpetual coat of wax was necessary to seal water out.

With a poly finish a good sounding instrument will still sound exactly as good as it did new and weigh pretty much the same in 50 years. With an all nitro finish, including the primer sealer coat, a properly stored instrument can be a tad lighter and a bit more resonant in 50 years.

Each finish has advantages. If you want durability, easy care and perpetual good looks then poly has definite advantages. For the majority of players, poly is the best choice.

Poly colors are also more stable and less reactive to light than nitro. Light can cause all sorts of color changes in colored paint and even to nitro clearcoats. These color changes are most apparent when you remove the pickguard from a nitro finished vintage instrument and less apparent on poly finishes of a similar age. The reason there is a color called Vintage White is to replicate the color change of an aged Olympic White nitro finish which almost always is now a creamy yellow.

I personally think the player makes far more tonal difference than the paint type used on an instrument.


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Post subject: Re: 60's Jazz finish
Posted: Sun Apr 01, 2012 1:35 pm
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Thanks, Brotherdave,
I knew you would provide a thorough explanation. Probably what my salesman meant was that an original version of the bass would have been nitro rather than that the reissue is.

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Post subject: Re: 60's Jazz finish
Posted: Sun Apr 01, 2012 8:26 pm
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Outstanding dissertation, Brother Dave!

Should definitely qualify as a permanent "sticky" or a response to a "FAQ" (if we had such a section on this forum).

8)

Arjay

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Post subject: Re: 60's Jazz finish
Posted: Mon Apr 02, 2012 3:39 pm
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I thought Polyester was cloth. The stuff them Cousin Eddie Leisure suits was made of. I learn stuff all the time.


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Post subject: Re: 60's Jazz finish
Posted: Wed Apr 04, 2012 12:52 am
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Polyurethane or Polyester are both names for Poly auto paints I think. Could be wrong. But the automotive paints are usually called Polyurethane even though they contain Polyester. Yes Eddie's leisure suits, while quite stylish, were Polyester fabric probably. Anyway they are all plastic.


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Post subject: Re: 60's Jazz finish
Posted: Wed Apr 04, 2012 7:51 pm
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What is a little confusing is that on the Fender website it says that the MIM basses have a polyester finish on the body but a polyurethane finish on the necks. So there must be some sort of difference.

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"the only people for me are the mad ones, the ones who are mad to live, mad to talk, mad to be saved, desirous of everything at the same time, the ones that never yawn or say a commonplace thing, but burn, burn, burn"
Jack Kerouac, On the Road


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Post subject: Re: 60's Jazz finish
Posted: Thu Apr 05, 2012 1:11 am
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To clear that confusion up, Polyester Paint and Polyurethane are two different names for essentially the same thing. Plastic paint.

Any auto body guys here? Laid off Dupont engineers? Anybody that can maybe better explain the exact difference if any?


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Post subject: Re: 60's Jazz finish
Posted: Thu May 03, 2012 10:06 am
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Regardless of what the finish is technically made of, this bass feels, sounds, and looks great. Hope you are enjoying yours! I don't hear much talk about this particular model, but I think it is one of the best values out there.


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Post subject: Re: 60's Jazz finish
Posted: Thu May 03, 2012 10:12 am
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Yes, I agree that it plays great and is a great value. Unfortunately right now mine is in the pawn shop. Hoping to get it back by the end of May.

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"the only people for me are the mad ones, the ones who are mad to live, mad to talk, mad to be saved, desirous of everything at the same time, the ones that never yawn or say a commonplace thing, but burn, burn, burn"
Jack Kerouac, On the Road


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