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Post subject: "True fretless"
Posted: Sat Oct 02, 2010 11:04 am
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After looking at the variety of fretless basses on the market I noticed Fender currently doesn't offer an mid-priced unlined fretless. I like the Tony Franklin and Steve Bailey models but these are out of my range, and you don't find them used. I have nothing against the lined fretless, but I like the look of the ebony board, not to mention the fact that an unlined mandates knowing postion and using your ear. I would like to see an unlined j or p bass in the H1 - Am std price range. What do you think?


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Posted: Sat Oct 02, 2010 2:00 pm
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I don't want to get into the discussion on lined and un-lined fretless basses, but I do take offense to your obvious remark about a "True Fretless" So if it has lines it is not a "True Fretless"? So I guess guys like Jaco, Les Claypool, Mark Egan, Bunny Brunel......do not play a "True Fretless" since they have lined fretless basses?

Here is a photo of my fretless....and believe me when I say it is a True Fretless in every way!

Image

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Posted: Sat Oct 02, 2010 3:46 pm
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Damn that's a nice Sadowsky.

I don't think the lines really help. You know where the tones are or you don't.

Seriously...that' a nice bass.


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Posted: Sat Oct 02, 2010 4:29 pm
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Didn't mean to ruffle any feathers. This is a discussion board after all. I have seen some really poor defretting jobs in my time and don't care for them as a de-fret is never perfect. Even Jaco's bass was a de-fret and wood filler was used, or so the story goes. I just don't like the look of the fret marking lines. You guys are right though, you either know the tones, lines or no lines. The post is really about Fender offering an ebony unlined affordable version.


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Posted: Sat Oct 02, 2010 6:33 pm
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jd101 wrote:
Didn't mean to ruffle any feathers. This is a discussion board after all. I have seen some really poor defretting jobs in my time and don't care for them as a de-fret is never perfect. Even Jaco's bass was a de-fret and wood filler was used, or so the story goes. I just don't like the look of the fret marking lines. You guys are right though, you either know the tones, lines or no lines. The post is really about Fender offering an ebony unlined affordable version.


Oh don't worry, my feather's are not ruffled.... :lol:

But once you get into the Ebony fret boards you get into that "higher" price bracket. You might look at a Warmoth fretless necks. Besides the basses you mentioned they never really did the ebony fretless thing. Even my Victor Baily jazz did not have an Ebony board. That is something I always wanted, a Jazz bass with fretless Ebony fingerboard. Since Fender did not have one....I had Roger Sadowsky make me one! But you are talking in the $3K range for that puppy!

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Posted: Sat Oct 02, 2010 6:35 pm
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DantheBassist wrote:
Damn that's a nice Sadowsky.

I don't think the lines really help. You know where the tones are or you don't.

Seriously...that' a nice bass.


Thanks, it was well worth the wait! One feature I love is if you notice, I have the pickups in the 70's Jazz position. Give me more of that mid growl I love from a fretless.

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NS Design Omnibass Electric Upright
Breedlove Solo Acoustic Fretless


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Posted: Sat Oct 02, 2010 7:43 pm
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...and I just recently commented on high priced Fender clones. :oops: I'm about to change the bridge J pickup on my Samick fretless. Way too much noise. Maybe it's a grounding problem.

Overall affordability has always been a part of Fender tradition(not counting custom shop, artist stuff). Ebony wood is expensive.


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Posted: Wed Oct 06, 2010 10:23 am
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I highly recommend the MIJ/CIJ FLs from the 90s. There are two on ebay right now in the $400 range. Just search on fender jazz japan fretless.

I've had my '97 for over 10 years now and I love it.


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Post subject: 2 cents
Posted: Thu Oct 07, 2010 4:46 am
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Being a strictly fretless player and a string bass player, I have to comment on this. I have a defretted neck that's been filled with a dark brown epoxy, so the lines don't really stand out. I do believe there is a benefit to the lines on a bass guitar in that if you have the ear to play in tune, but are having trouble playing certain passages in tune. You can use the fret lines for a visual reference for what you need to fix (i.e., this particular lick is out of tune because the 2nd finger is too close/far away from the 3rd or whatever). One other comment; when you're standing up on a stage, you don't really see the fret lines anyway, as you're looking at the side of the neck not the front, unless you're one of those players who crane their neck forward when they play like a buzzard sitting on a branch.


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Posted: Thu Oct 07, 2010 8:28 am
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Because the lines aren't typically visible when playing on stage is exactly why I would argue against their utility. If anything, the lines give a false sense of intonation (since intonating a fretless perfectly is almost pointless) and force the player to assume an unnatural position to see the lines, thus ruining the hand-eye relationship that is critical to FL playing. All of my FLs are unlined and I use the side dots and my ear to get the proper intonation.

I'm not saying that I always get the proper intonation, but I can hear it when I don't. The issue of intonation is not just spacing between notes; one of the more difficult aspects is the change in hand-eye distance as you go from the E string which is rooted nicely to the side dots to the G string, which introduces potential error as you move above or below the point at which your eyes are perpendicular to the neck (typically somewhere near the octave on an electric). This is less of an issue on upright because the fingerboard is very close to your eyes.


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Posted: Fri Oct 08, 2010 11:29 am
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That's a beautiful Sadowsky fretless bass.


Do you still need to intonate the bass bridge on a fretless bass or do your fingers compensate in some way for intonation?

I was just wondering. I would assume that some intonation is needed but I have wondered because I have seen fretless basses with single piece bridges.

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Posted: Sat Oct 09, 2010 7:51 am
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BCbassman wrote:
That's a beautiful Sadowsky fretless bass.


Do you still need to intonate the bass bridge on a fretless bass or do your fingers compensate in some way for intonation?

I was just wondering. I would assume that some intonation is needed but I have wondered because I have seen fretless basses with single piece bridges.


Yes, the intonation should still be set as if it was a fretted bass. That way you have a solid starting point in regards to your fingering. I've always set up my fretless basses that way. Don't forget you are actually fretting slightly behind the fretline. How much depends on the width of your finger tips and were you are on the neck. I find after the 12th fret you have to move a bit further behind the fretline. Your ears will hear it and after time you will develop muscle memory in your fingers depending on the position you are playing on the neck.

BTW, thanks for comment on my Sadowsky! It sounds as great as it looks! I am heading into a recording session with it today....

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Fodera Monarch Standard Special Madrone
Roscoe Century Custom 5
Bacchus Craft Series 5 String Jazz
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Delray Bass Co. Custom P-Bass
NS Design Omnibass Electric Upright
Breedlove Solo Acoustic Fretless


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Post subject: fretline usefull or no
Posted: Sat Oct 09, 2010 9:36 pm
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FretlessOnly wrote:
Because the lines aren't typically visible when playing on stage is exactly why I would argue against their utility. If anything, the lines give a false sense of intonation (since intonating a fretless perfectly is almost pointless) and force the player to assume an unnatural position to see the lines, thus ruining the hand-eye relationship that is critical to FL playing. All of my FLs are unlined and I use the side dots and my ear to get the proper intonation.

I'm not saying that I always get the proper intonation, but I can hear it when I don't. The issue of intonation is not just spacing between notes; one of the more difficult aspects is the change in hand-eye distance as you go from the E string which is rooted nicely to the side dots to the G string, which introduces potential error as you move above or below the point at which your eyes are perpendicular to the neck (typically somewhere near the octave on an electric). This is less of an issue on upright because the fingerboard is very close to your eyes.


As a longtime string bass player, I would say that the proximity of the fingerboard on the string bass has nothing to do with intonation. We used to make a joke among us string bassists that you don't need to look at the fingerboard as there is nothing to see. The fingering system on a string bass is much more conducive to muscle memory due to the large physical landmarks on the instrument i.e., the nut, the shoulders, the neck heel, etc. One of the reasons I like having the fretlines on a fretless is that so much of the neck is without physical landmarks i.e., the 7th "fret" is just another fret on the neck whereas the 7th "position" on a string bass has a definite physical landmark as that is the point on most basses where the neck begins to flare out into the heel. As for intonation on either instrument, while it is impossible to play perfectly in tune all the time, a very good player will adjust any intonation inconsistency so fast that the pitch discrepancy is insignificant.


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Posted: Sat Oct 09, 2010 10:28 pm
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Well, as a long-time string bass player myself, I would guess that we arrived that the same goal (good intonation) by different mechanisms.

While I'd agree that proper intonation is based on muscle memory, note that muscle memory is directly related to the distance from the target said muscle memory is learned. This is, in turn, directly related to the distance of the fingerboard from your forehead and your body as you move up the neck. Well to me, anyway.

And there is indeed something to look at on my upright. The flame in my neck wood varies, and I've become accustomed to the varability in the neck flame to the point that I can recognize regions of the fingerboard based on the flame pattern on the neck. Not so much as the neck flare or the octave near the body bout, but any port in a storm, no?


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Post subject: one more
Posted: Sun Oct 10, 2010 7:15 am
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If one is considering switching from fretted to fretless (or as in my case, getting the frets yanked), you should be aware of the fact that the dot markers on the neck will not line up with the note, i.e. the third fret dot marker on the E string is actually physically located to a very sharp F#. Some companies that make fretless counterparts to their fretted instruments shift the dot markers to be inline with the actual note. I believe Dean may be one of these. I've never understood why the dot markers were place in the middle of the fret space to begin with, as it makes so much more sense to have the dot marker on the note, not "almost" on the note. At any rate it is something to be aware of.

I rarely look at the fingerboard when I play but when I do I still have to remind myself that the dot is not on the spot.


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