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Post subject: Adjusting Intonation on a fretless bass?
Posted: Fri Sep 10, 2010 2:50 pm
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I have a JAZZ bass, the 'manual' says to 'depress the last fret/capo first fret, and measure at the 8th fret! Well, the lack of frets HAS to cause some kind of 'false/positive' reading! Can anyone shed some 'light' as to the correct way to interpret these readings?
Thanks
Barry-Toronto


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Posted: Fri Sep 10, 2010 3:41 pm
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I believe this is how you do it for fretless basses, I'm not 100% sure, so take this with a grain of salt.
Measure 34" from the nut, place your G string saddle (measuring at the saddle where the string contacts it). at that point. Then using the individual strings guage as a reference, subtract the smaller guage from the larger, set the next string's saddle (in this caase the D) that much further back. In other words, if your G is .045 in. and your D is .060 in., you would set the saddle for the D string .015 in. further from the nut. And so on down thru the E string.
Now if you want to check with a tuner, I suppose you could measure 17" from the nut, mark that positon on a piece of masking tape placed on the edge of the fretboard, and that would be used as a sort of twelfth fret reference point where you could, either using a harmonic, or carefully "fretting" at that point, check with the tuner to see how close you can get. Averaging these two methods out should at the very least get you close.
Does that make sense?

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Posted: Fri Sep 10, 2010 5:30 pm
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The title of your thread is about adjusting intonation on a fretless, but your post is about measuring neck relief. So, which do you want to do, intonate or measure neck relief?

I've been playing fretless for years and I've rarely done any intonation adjustments. The main indicator of a problem is if the octave or fifth harmonic sounds out of tune with the open or adjacent string, as applicable.

As to measuring neck relief, you don't need a capo. And it isn't critical that you measure right at the 8th "fret" (but if you play fretless, you should know exactly where that point is anyway). As you'll see below, I measure my relief around the 10th "fret" - close enough for engineering work.

The following discussion is to be done on both the E string and G string, but I've used the E sa an example. If the results are significantly different between the E and the G, you may have neck twist which should be addressed by a pro.

Finger the lowest note on your E string (F) and, assuming you're a righty, use your right thumb to simultaneously finger the highest note on the same string (right near the end of the fingerboard (a note you'll never actually use). Now angle your right hand so your fingers point back toward the nut and extend your middle finger as far as you can back toward the low F while still depressing the string with your thumb (it's not necessary to be fingering the notes in proper intonation here; you are just trying to isolate as long a section of the E string as you can to compare to the neck bow).

Use your middle finger to depress the E string (I can reach past the octave to about D or Eb; it depends on scale length). If the E string is more than about 2 mm above the fingerboard where you are depressing it, you may need to have your truss rod tightened a bit to flatten the neck. If the string is basically sitting on the fingerboard where you depress it, then you may need to add relief to the neck by loosening the truss rod.*

If you haven't adjusted a truss rod before, be careful. A little can go a long way, and if the rods are stuck, don't force them - bring it to a luthier. But, right = tight and left = loose. Only turn the roda a quarter turn at a time, and give the neck 12-24 hours to adjust and then re-check relief.

*Different basses do better with different amounts of relief. Fenders are designed to have a bit of relief (your manual should tell you). Rickenbackers are best set nearly dead flat. And my 2 mm guideline is just an estimate - check the manual. Or, just do what feels comfortable.

A bit too much relief isn't necessarily a bad thing, but it can make the action high and affect tone. Way too much relief can damage the neck. Too little relief can cause fingerboard buzzing, which sounds awful to my ears.


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Posted: Fri Sep 10, 2010 7:42 pm
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About the intonation...

I use a digi tuner with lights. You can't just tune the 12th fret harmonic to pitch and have the rest of the intonation be correct on that string.

Start by doing just that as stated above then play the high-G on the E string. If you are pressing on the fingerboard with your fingers slide-style(straight across/flat against the fingerboard with the position marker in the middle of your nail) on that particular note it needs to be in exact pitch with the tuner. Adjust until it is...along with re-tuning the open string to the tuner also...of course. You'll figure out which are the other key notes to adjust to. My Korg tuner has the green light in middle with reds on the side for an example. Tune until there are no red lights.

Your bridge will not look typical.

This applies with the rest of the strings.

Try not to use the tuner when finished. Practice/tune without.


Last edited by DantheBassist on Fri Sep 10, 2010 7:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Posted: Fri Sep 10, 2010 7:56 pm
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1. Despite the title of this thread, I don't believe that the OP was asking about how to intonate a fretless. From his post, he appears to be concerned about intonating at the 8th "fret" on a fretless which is where manufacturers suggest you should check neck relief, which is what his post is about.

2. I didn't meant to indicate that one should tune at the octave harmonic to establish correct intonation over the length of a string. One should instead use the octave harmonic in conjunction with the open note and surrounding open strings in tune with the harmonic 5th (generally obtained at the 4th or 5th "fret" depending on string, thanks to the bass being tuned in 4ths). Since one can only intonate a string using one note relative to one other note (at a time - it's a balance), the octave is the logical place to do this, and it spaces any error out over the length of the octave (granted, significant error at the 12th "fret" will result in bigger error ABOVE that note, but usually the notes above the octave are used sparingly in contrast to those below the 12th "fret". Error below the 12th fret is attenuated because of the larger distance between frets as you move toward the nut. Which leads to:

3. You cannot properly intonate the high G on the E string by centering the dot on your fingernail. That works fine on the low G (3rd "fret") because of the large distance between "frets". By the time you get to the octave or 12th "fret", you need to be aligning the dot near the pinky side of your finger to have the note properly intonated (assuming you are playing, as you indicated, with your finger flat against the board and perpendicular to it).


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Posted: Fri Sep 10, 2010 8:22 pm
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Well, he/she did mention a concern with a "reading".

I appreciate your advice about relief.

Didn't mean to imply any indication.

You're more likely to be out of tune with the dot aligned on the pinky's side like you mentioned. Many do so. It's just harder to find the pitch that way. I'm not saying you're wrong...but I will say my methods work very well. You definately can intonate the whole bass with my given advice about bridge adjustment/intonation.

I think this has been on here before. Same reply pattern, even.

Um..take care.


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Posted: Fri Sep 10, 2010 8:32 pm
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Hey Dan: no implication on my side, either. It's good we can all pitch in to get to the nub of the issue at hand. The problem here is that we're not quite sure what the issue is!

I would add that "You're more likely to be out of tune with the dot aligned on the pinky's side like you mentioned. Many do so. It's just harder to find the pitch that way." isn't what I meant.

I center the fret dot in my fingernail when in the low positions, but by the time you get to the octave, you'll be noticeably sharp if you finger those notes the same way and still center the dot (because the "stop" is actually at the high-pitch end of your fingertip). Of course, we all play differently, and nowhere is that more important than on fretless.

When I get near, at and above the octave, I'm putting the dot near the edge of my finger on the pinky side to get proper pitch. If we all had fingertips the size of nail heads, this wouldn't be an issue, but since we use our fingertips differently, it becomes important when trying to describe where the right pitch is. As always, the answer is in your own ears. But having a reference to think about when checking for the pitch in your own ear, can be a useful thing, to some anyway. I like to use a mental concept of proper ptich, couple it with a visual, and then confirm it with my ear.

Having done all that for years, my ears are generally good enough nowadays. Except for all that loud prog ringing in my ears...


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Posted: Fri Sep 10, 2010 8:41 pm
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I do wish I had Larry Bird's hands for bass.


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